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81
Big Wall Forum / Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Last post by mungeclimber on September 29, 2015, 12:12:10 pm »
aluminum dowels are the golden standard.


Wouldn't a 24kt gold dowel be the standard?  :-P
82
Big Wall Forum / Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Last post by cobbledik on September 29, 2015, 11:03:09 am »
""Machine heads are bolts"  Machine heads are not bolts."
This is true if you disregard what the thing truthfully is, and consider only how it's used for climbing, but people often don't segregate the two meanings, which causes confusion like in the post I responded to. But never mind my semantics.

Semantics is important because it deals with how the meaning of your words are to be understood be the receiver. Separating "hardware store" meaning from "climbing" meaning is always fun because it causes discussion, but you're then taking the language out of its context, which is pointless to the goal of understanding what is being said. If this was a hardware store forum, or a construction forum, or a <3rivets forum the technical definition of a rivet in a hardware store/construction/<3rivets is relevant. Since this is a climbing forum, the contextual understanding of the use of the term is built into the assumed understanding of the language. trying to cram one into the other is disingenuous at best.

Let's be truthful. No one is attaching sheet metal to anything with a rivet in a climbing context, so we throw that specific definition out.

Truthfully, the term of "rivet" is a catch-all in climbing for a type of "metal in rock" as Mucci so deftly put it. That type? This is where the truth comes into play.

Truthfully, the contextual understanding of the different groups of metal in rock are progression versus protection which you conveniently disregarded.

rivets are progression
bolts are protection

what makes the distinction? active force against the rock via compression of expansion.

We then go even further with the level of active force.

Do machine heads have active force? sure, the threads get jammed against the shaft BUT the technical term for how much active force would probably be "crappy." Zmac's have active force as well, but just as crappy.

Which is why the ability to catch a fall keeps coming up. progression vs protection.
Protection = Bolt
- split shaft 1/4" buttonhead
- 3/8" expansion bolt
- above without a hanger, bolt.

Progression = Rivet
- machine head
- zmac
- dowel

Ah but wait! "but people often don't segregate the two meanings, which causes confusion like in the post I responded to" Hmmmmm, let's return to the point about context, which is that on a bigwall climbing forum, people may not separate the meanings because they don't need to. The context of the forum defines the meaning as climbing context, not hardware store context.

But what about the bolts without a hanger!?! Aren't rivets just hangerless metal in rock? I understand that inexperienced climbers acting upon what they see rather than an understanding of its use often make this mistake and should be corrected through millions of thread posts. Does this mean that routes like Hurricane Jingus on Falls Wall have rivet belays because those bolts are hangerless? Granted, if you put a shitty wire rivet hanger on the bolts, they might not be good enough to catch a fall, but that's a question of the hanger and not the bolt itself. If I place a 1/2" x 3" expansion bolt in rock and then use a wet spaghetti noodle for the hanger, did I just place a rivet?

Whatever. I'm done and I'm not going to proofread or spellcheck this because i'm at work and I should probably do some of the things that they sort of pay me for.
83
Big Wall Forum / Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Last post by *Mucci* on September 28, 2015, 06:21:05 pm »
I have used all types and sizes of "rivets"

The shortest are always where there is good gear below.

Ladders are interspersed with 1/4" button heads and carriage bolts in between.
We moved to a SS carriage bolt for the head size and poundability.  Regular machine heads get deerformed sometimes.


I have been caught by both 1.25" x 1/4" button heads and rivets.

If a FA'st weighs out the placement, the appropriate bolt, rivet etc will get placed.

Metal In rock as we say.   Bomber.
84
Big Wall Forum / Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Last post by kristoffer on September 28, 2015, 01:13:29 pm »
aluminum dowels are the golden standard.
85
Big Wall Forum / Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Last post by mungeclimber on September 28, 2015, 11:50:21 am »
Hangerless Bolt shall be "Mike.'s metal sketchy sticks!"

heheheh

cheers hombre! good to see you back on the boards.
86
Big Wall Forum / Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Last post by Mike. on September 28, 2015, 11:44:11 am »
I like...now all we need is our own special word that denotes a hangerless bolt. Maybe..."hangerless bolt"? It's got to be clearer than borrowing a word that already has a precise definition, then having to explain it time and again on web forums. Ah, the lexicon. Don't get me started on "continuous loop"...

Cheers, Mungeclimber.  8-)
87
Big Wall Forum / Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Last post by mungeclimber on September 28, 2015, 11:08:42 am »
Really, we should stop using the term 'rivet' altogether. I can see that.

Heretofore, shall hereafter be:

Machine Head = Machine Head
Rivet = Non existent, except WEML
Bolt = Required discussion of size, age, type, no exceptions.

lol


I <3 ratings discussions!!! :)


88
Big Wall Forum / Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Last post by Mike. on September 28, 2015, 08:44:31 am »
""Machine heads are bolts"  Machine heads are not bolts."

This is true if you disregard what the thing truthfully is, and consider only how it's used for climbing, but people often don't segregate the two meanings, which causes confusion like in the post I responded to. But never mind my semantics. Get back to the big issues, like whether something is A1 or A1+.

: )
89
Big Wall Forum / Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Last post by mungeclimber on September 27, 2015, 10:36:30 pm »
My definition is different and based upon the principle of what type of fall it can withstand, in general.


"Machine heads are bolts"  Machine heads are not bolts. A crappy machine head will fail at a much lower rating than a modest solid 3/8 wedge bolt. A large machine head (like the one on Zodiac?), could hold a whip, but that's the exception, no?

3/8" buttonheads are bolts, assuming the rock hasn't cratered on install. I've rebolting one of these in a lodestone and it was a nightmare coming out. Though I don't know what they are rated to.
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Big Wall Forum / Re: Fa grading question.
« Last post by mungeclimber on September 27, 2015, 10:32:05 pm »
A is for the type of gear (C vs. A)

# is for the hardest move on the pitch (or better yet for the route).


any clarifications go into the pitch by pitch topo or written descriptions.


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