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Big Wall Index => Big Wall Forum => Topic started by: Baltoro on April 15, 2011, 11:56:32 am

Title: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: Baltoro on April 15, 2011, 11:56:32 am
So I?ve done a fair amount of soloing as practice on single and two pitch climbs and made an ill-fated attempt on Mideast Crisis. During these climbs I?ve tried out prusik re-belays, lots of sceamers, screamers off the anchor and more. What I haven?t tried and I?m curious your thoughts on is basically eliminating anything longer than a screamer or regular loose quickdraw from my rack. Here?s my thinking on this:

If rope drag is not an issue as it?s not in soloing and rope length is not a concern as it?s often not when leading with a 70m then the only reason to use runners is to keep the minimal rope movement from dislodging nuts or making cams walk.

I guess you could have some longer slings around to equalize crappy gear as needed. Also my lightest draw setup is probably the 24?x8-10mm Mammut or BD slings tripled up so maybe it?s a moot point but it was aid related and since Supertopo seems to be an empty vacuum for any climbing related content I wanted something to talk about that wouldn?t immediately be relegated to page 5, buried under such hot topics as ?The Massive Ark on the Moon? (2584 posts and counting) and ?Politics, God and Religion vs. Science? (2949 posts and counting).

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: mhudon on April 15, 2011, 12:28:17 pm
Right, the rope doesn't move so drag is not an issue. I used quickdraws and slings for the same reason you describe. On my next solo I'll be taking only a few draws and slings, probably only 4 each. Another reason for a draw or a sling would be to position the rope away from a sharp edge, even still, four of each seems plenty.
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: Garbonzo on April 15, 2011, 04:13:03 pm
Mideast Crisis is worth another try (worth 2 successes and a previous failure).  Go up the Planck's Constant Roof for the start, it is a spectacular way to start a wall!  Not scary either (take 2x #5 old school camalots, and ~2 each #4.5).
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: Baltoro on April 15, 2011, 06:44:10 pm
Yeah I opted for the regular start, partially because I didn't want to carry up the giant cams for Planks and haul them up the route and down but I guess I could've just brought them back down after fixing. I was trying to get the 2nd pitch clean and managed to bend a Cliffhanger into a cam hook shape, taking a 30+ footer.

I'd love to go back again. I certainly feel a lot more experienced and prepared. That and I was psyched to see you guys managed it clean.
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: YetAnotherDave on April 15, 2011, 09:30:06 pm
I take 4 or 6 extendables when soloing and usually only 2 shorty draws - the extendables are good for  standing in when transitioning to free.  The weight/bulk of screamers over regular draws isn't much, so I mostly mix free biners and screamers on gear.  I'll also often use a long sling or two at each anchor, especially when I haven't been out much and my CF management is poor...

I haven't done anything that's hard enough to need to equalise placements to get to bodyweight-worthy, but since having a kid my personal load on placements has gone up a bit   :-(
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: lambone on April 16, 2011, 06:45:46 pm
Longer runners can also be used to keep your rope from running on sharp edges...

Edit: oops, mark covered that...
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: Mike. on April 16, 2011, 10:24:11 pm
Longer draws will increase the dynamic effect of the rope in a fall, making a marginal piece more likely to stop a fall. In a sense you do have rope drag soloing.
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: jake on April 16, 2011, 10:46:11 pm
Garbonzo

Why would you ever want to aid a bomber fat free crack on big cams?  That is like jacking off when you could be fucking your wet waiting lady!

If I climbed that route and my partner led that wide shit... I'd even make him clean it while I drank all the teams beer and ate your most beloved item of food.
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: lambone on April 17, 2011, 10:12:32 am
Longer draws will increase the dynamic effect of the rope in a fall, making a marginal piece more likely to stop a fall. In a sense you do have rope drag soloing.

Good point mike!

Been meaning to call you back btw
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: Garbonzo on April 17, 2011, 07:55:09 pm
Garbonzo

Why would you ever want to aid a bomber fat free crack on big cams?  That is like jacking off when you could be fucking your wet waiting lady!

If I climbed that route and my partner led that wide shit... I'd even make him clean it while I drank all the teams beer and ate your most beloved item of food.

Cuz 5.13 is still sort of beyond my limit.  The better question is wht the free monkeys felt the need to put two bolts on a crack like that.
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: mhudon on April 17, 2011, 08:54:11 pm
Longer draws will increase the dynamic effect of the rope in a fall, making a marginal piece more likely to stop a fall.

Interesting.

Are you saying that allowing the rope to "flap around" more than if it was directly clipped into no slings at all in the pitch will cause the rope to act more dynamically?
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: lambone on April 17, 2011, 11:42:52 pm
I think mike is saying that longer runners allow the rope to run straighter, reducing rope drag friction between pieces, allowing the rope to effectively stretch more evenly throughout it's length....making it more dynamic, reducing the impact force on your top piece.

I'd have to agree.

Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: lambone on April 17, 2011, 11:50:45 pm
Long runners might also prevent tiny nuts from popping out, or cams from walking unwantedly should you fall or even just pull up hard on your rope.
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: mhudon on April 18, 2011, 09:10:04 am
I think mike is saying that longer runners allow the rope to run straighter, reducing rope drag friction between pieces, allowing the rope to effectively stretch more evenly throughout it's length....making it more dynamic, reducing the impact force on your top piece.

I'd have to agree.

Yes, I'd agree also. It's a point that I've never thought about.
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: Baltoro on April 18, 2011, 10:42:03 am
I considered the sharp edges and most of the other beta but not Mike's point about the ropes dynamics. Makes sense.

I'm a firm believer that falling a little further while rope stretches and screamers deploy is probably better than the top piece blowing and falling considerably farther.

Nice to have an aid relavent topic every once in awhile.

Thanks for the input from everyone.

Oh and I did the regular 2nd pitch that Garbonzo avoided via the Plank's roof. Not sure if Jake is refering to that as a "wet waiting lady" because it's described as wet and dirty in Supertopo or if the wet has other meanings. For what it's worth the only part that appears to be wet and dirty is right past the tree, off the slab for about 20ft. or so. After you pull a little roof onto a hanging slab above there's no more dirt and wetness. It will definitely go at C2, maybe C3, just make sure to bring the #4 or be more aggressive in getting out of the aiders at the crux. It's probably easier to halfway free the move than try and aid it with a #3 as your biggest piece.
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: cobbledik on April 18, 2011, 03:47:19 pm
ooooooo, it was a metaphor?

I thought aid climbing was starting to get sexy...
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: johnmac on April 18, 2011, 07:23:08 pm
I take a variety of slings and draws:

10-12 quick draws for extending pieces that I think the angel of the rope might pull in the case of fall (various lengths, extendable)
Half a dozen screamers
2 x 6 foot long prussik cords thats I use to reduce the weight of the rope when leading throughout the pitch or when I'm concerned about edges, etc.
Several double slings
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: Mike. on April 23, 2011, 07:49:59 am
Thanks for clarifying that, Matt. (Chat ya whenever...my OR trip is pushed back a bit.)


vvv Big wall or confession? : )
Title: Re: Thoughts on runners/draws for solo-aid
Post by: mungeclimber on April 23, 2011, 11:54:12 am
Mike. is back!  How long has it been since your last big wall confession?  ;)