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Big Wall Index => Big Wall Forum => Topic started by: mhudon on March 12, 2012, 11:02:47 am

Title: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: mhudon on March 12, 2012, 11:02:47 am
So, the misery has struck and the bag is stuck. You're getting ready to go down and you notice the toothed cam that will be soon holding you and the bags while you flip-flop around down there trying to get them un-stuck.

Are you concerned about that?

How do you safety that?

Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: Mike. on March 12, 2012, 11:10:16 am
Why are you committed to a toothed cam? Why not rap the lead line from a secure part of the anchor?

Klemheist, prusik, etc., below the toothed cam, tensioned for downward pull backs up the scariness.

I'm not bothered by committing to a toothed cam if there is no practical alternative. Each of my ascenders has one...
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: mhudon on March 12, 2012, 11:19:33 am
Sure, you're secured by the lead rope, the rope you rapped down on, but you're going to have to be fully on the haul line, pulling on the far end hauler at some point. If something weird happened and the toothed cam cut the rope, you would be secured on the lead line but you would now have the full weight of the haul bag hanging from your belay loop.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: Mike. on March 12, 2012, 11:50:48 am
Got ya.

I'd say NBD since the bag's connection to you will be taught and your primary connection dynamic. Another good reason to have a pocket knife on you...?

Once the rope-grabbing knot is in place below the hauler it's a non-issue. Tensioning that backup will be a simple reverse haul since it doesn't matter if your bag drops down a few inches or a foot.

Extending the concern for the haul bag ending up on you somehow: A similar disaster could happen even without far end hauling, if the hauler, its connections or that one anchor point fails. I often slap a 'draw on the haul line near the hauler, connected to an alternate part of the anchor, especially if the haul is one-bolt-centric.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: mhudon on March 12, 2012, 12:03:11 pm
I'm presenting more of a mental challenge than anything else, Mike.

People always say "yeah, just clip this to that and you're good to go" but in real life "clipping this to that" can be a lot more complicated than that and sometimes impossible.

Your solution of the Klemhiest is perfect but I want people to go through every step of the process of setting it up and taking it apart. How exactly to you get it tightly on the rope and then how do you get it off?
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: Mike. on March 12, 2012, 12:06:59 pm
How exactly to you get it tightly on the rope and then how do you get it off?

You put it on loosely and reverse the haul until it's taught. Then you haul a few inches and it's loose again so it can be easily removed.

Am I over-simplifying this?
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: mhudon on March 12, 2012, 12:19:23 pm
Nope, perfect.

I just want people to think about it in concrete rather abstract terms.

On the South Seas last fall I had a plan to lower Max down and then have him rap further to the ground. I thought I had it figured out how I was going to get past the knot and down. When my turn came to rap I went down only to realize that I hadn't set myself up to be able to take weight of the rope to remove my Gri Gri. Luckily I could barely touch the slab and got myself swinging and eventually was able to run up the slab to a tiny ledge and take my weight off the rope and pass the knot. If I hadnt been able to touch the slab I would have totally clusterized myself!
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: cobbledik on March 12, 2012, 01:26:25 pm
nothing to add but thank you for the exercise.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: Mike. on March 12, 2012, 01:40:08 pm
I think there's definite value in these kinds of discussions. Potential what-ifs are so great in numbers...you just don't know where/when the next unexpected problem-solve will be needed. I've had one "great idea" or another go bad before my eyes?it's frustrating, but on the other hand lets me exercise my bean to recover.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: Baltoro on March 12, 2012, 01:46:35 pm
Mark
That's part of what I like about the Kong Block-Roll dealio; you can fix the rope above the cam, unweight the cam and its evil teeth are no longer in the system. The trick is getting the weight off the teeth to release it. I'm a big dude and can counter the weight of the bags ok to release so no mini-haul is need for me. Assuming you have some up and down range and that the bags aren't completely stuck I would go through this process:

Clip my gri-gri into the haul line above the Kong- the visual would be the line going up from the stuck bags, through the cam, up and over the pulley and then down to my gri-gri.
I would cinch the gr-gri tight enough to take the weigh of the bags onto me and then release the cam on the Kong.
Then once the bags are weighted by me I would put a kliemheist on the rope below the pulley on the bag side. I'd lower out on the gri-gr until the kliemheist took the load. Ideally this would be a little ways below the cam and pulley on the Kong as its easier to rig it up again later as I may only be far-end hauling for a few feet.
I'd finish the process by putting a back-up knot on the haulline above the kliemheist.
Then I'd be rapping on my lead line with the haul line held by the friction knot with a back-up knot. The toothed cam is out of the picture until I want it to be in again.
After rapping down, doing the far-end hauling and then jugging back up I could slip the haulline rope back into the Kong, close the cam, undo the back-up knot, run the haul line over the pulley again, apply my ascender/ladder to the non-pig side and take up some tension.
That will release the load off the kliemheist and I can remove that from the pig side of the haulline and start hauling again only to have to repeat the whole process again in a few minutes on this pitch or best case scenario on the next pitch.

I think I forgot everything. Oh and next time I'd make sure to solo something steeper where the bags won't get hung up so often.

Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: mhudon on March 12, 2012, 01:57:29 pm
That all sounds good. With my 2:1 system I'd do essentially the same thing.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: johnmac on March 12, 2012, 08:51:17 pm
I'm trying to figure it out too. I've messed with the far end system a bunch of times and I've always rapped down on the lead line and then jugged up that line while raising the bags using the far end system. 

In this scenario I'm guessing the lead rope isn't available?
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: mhudon on March 12, 2012, 08:53:37 pm
No, the lead rope is available but your big concern is the cam cutting the haul line and you ending up pinched between the haul bags dangling from your waist and your tie in to the lead line you rapped on.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: johnmac on March 13, 2012, 07:09:20 am
Oh, I got you now!

It has never really concerned me to this point, but I guess it all depends on how much weight and force that is going to apply. 10 pitches for me is a long route so I don't generally deal with a lot of the issues you do on El Cap. Most my stuff is two to four days.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: passthepitonspete on March 21, 2012, 09:01:51 pm
Mark writes,

"but you're going to have to be fully on the haul line, pulling on the far end hauler at some point. If something weird happened and the toothed cam cut the rope, you would be secured on the lead line but you would now have the full weight of the haul bag hanging from your belay loop."

Pete asks,

"What in the fuck are you talking about?!"  This makes no sense to me.  I don't get it.  

Are you doing something terribly wrong here? 

1) Rap lead rope til beside stuck pigs

2) Hang there on the lead rope on your Grigri

3) Take one of your jugs and put it on the weighted haul line above the pig

4) Clip a carabiner and pulley to the jug

5) Pass the free end of the haul line that comes out of the inverted hauling device on the top of the pigs through the pulley to form a Zed

6) Take your other jug, put it on the free end of the haul line, and push down with one leg [2:1] while simultaneously pulling up on the pig [3:1]

7) The pig slides up the haul line until it is too high, and you have to repeat the cycle

8) Take your second jug, clip it to the weighted lead rope above you, and pass the free end of the lead rope coming out of the Grigri through a carabiner and pulley on your second jug.  Use the 2:1 Body Hoist to ascend the lead rope.  You should use your Personal Pleasure Pulley = DMM Revolver for this purpose

9) Slide your other ascender up the weighted haul line, and repeat.

WTF are you talking about having the pig on your harness?  Toothed cams cutting ropes?  Dude, what are you doing WRONG???? 

I guess when you solo'd El Cap, you didn't have to do any Far End Hauling, eh?   ;)


Or am I the dumbass here, and missing something obvious?  But Mark's question above makes zero sense to me. 
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: mhudon on March 22, 2012, 07:51:35 am
You're reading it, Pete, but you're envisioning it incorrectly. It's not really about the actually far end hauling at all.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: Baltoro on March 22, 2012, 01:36:44 pm
Pete- I think Mark might be refering to Step 6 in your process where you clip a jug to the haul line to power the Far End setup. Theoretically if that jug was still connected to you via a daisy or anything really and the haul line somehow got the chop from the toothed cam above that the bag would then plummet until your connection to the jug caught it, in which case it would probably hurt and/or break things.

Maybe I'm wrong but that's where I think Mark is going.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: del cross on March 22, 2012, 04:16:56 pm
It's not even clear that the rope would catch on the jumar because of the direction it is oriented on the rope. It might just zip on through. Or maybe a loop would eventually whip around and snarl on you somehow? That sounds potentially painful.

But what's the worry really? You're hauling the whole wall with the bag attached to the haul line via a small toothed cam. You can't be thinking that it's that big of a deal or else you'd be using a Klemheist at the bag to unweight the mini-trax teeth as well.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: passthepitonspete on March 26, 2012, 05:04:57 pm
Geez, Mark - your comment explained nothing to me at all.  I still don't understand what you are talking about.

ASSUMING that you are talking about Step 6 as Baltoro points out, you have nothing to worry about. You are right there tending your pigs, there is no way on God's green earth the haul line can get damaged. 

Um, what ARE you talking about?!
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: mhudon on March 26, 2012, 05:10:36 pm
It's pretty simple.

ARE YOU WORRIED THAT THE TOOTHED CAM WILL CUT THE ROPE WHILE YOU ARE DOWN THERE DICKING WITH THE BAGS?
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: cobbledik on March 26, 2012, 09:34:31 pm
Edit: damnit, it's been a while and I forgot that Baltoro already presented this idea- never mind, keep walking, nothing to see here)

Since far end hauling (as far as I understand because I havnt actually done it yet) all happens at the bag AND you've got your 2:1 up top, can you avoid the issue by fixing the hauline to a hard knot on the anchor, disengage the teeth and then head down to dixk around with the bag? Once you're back up, it's easy to unweight the knot, pop the teeth back on and haul away? (exactly like you do when you rap down the haul line at the beginning of heading down to clean the pitch?)
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: lambone on March 27, 2012, 11:53:50 am
It's pretty simple.

ARE YOU WORRIED THAT THE TOOTHED CAM WILL CUT THE ROPE WHILE YOU ARE DOWN THERE DICKING WITH THE BAGS?

I don't see why it'd be any more likely to cut the rope then a hauler up at the main anchor...?
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: mhudon on March 27, 2012, 12:15:08 pm
it's the upper rope grab that i'm talking about
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: A5scott on March 27, 2012, 02:58:24 pm
whose on first?
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: cobbledik on March 27, 2012, 04:24:25 pm
Who is.

- - -
But seriously, this may be the best unintentional troll I've seen.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: skully on March 27, 2012, 10:26:38 pm
Cobbledik, you win on comedic timing, but seriously, if you're down there, what you left at the anchor IS of major concern to you, right?
I can see & have done the isolate on that line. At the time, it seemed a sensible back up. It still seems sensible.
It's the backup one doesn't do that kills.

Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: mhudon on March 28, 2012, 10:20:38 am
Sticking with my New Years resolution of "post no snark" I am unable to reply to the latest posts. ;-)
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: Baltoro on March 28, 2012, 11:43:56 am
Is seems like an appropriate time to include the requisite "yer gunna die" comment.

Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: Mike. on March 28, 2012, 11:45:36 am
The biggest takeaway from this discussion IMO is the prudence of building solid, redundant, non-extending anchors, and of using a dynamic haul line. Most if not all haul line damage from a hauler that comes to mind was precipitated by a short "fall." Mark, I like your clean rope-only anchors, but sticking with that ethos eliminates anchor rigging options. I can understand why you make a practice of hauling off one bolt. To my mind that lack of immediate redundancy is the elusive evil in the scenarios we're discussing.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: Baltoro on March 28, 2012, 12:25:53 pm
So side discussion here but related- Are camming grabs such as gri-gris and shunts better for a rope than toothed devices? I realize the answer initially seems obvious for a dynamic grab such as a fall but what about long term holding?

The other thread showing haul bag attachment options shows Mark attaching the pig to the line with a Mini-trax which affords many options. What if you replaced that with a gri-gri? Would that bend in the rope constantly pinching do any damage longterm to the rope? Would a Pro-trax or Mini-trax or Kong type device be better if it incorporated a more gentle camming grab rather than a toothed grab? Is that the dream device? Jugs and compound pullies that have no teeth? Hmm... It would eliminate some concerns over short falls onto your jugs, rapping from a toothed device and more I'm sure. Too much friction? How would the rope wear longterm? Hmm...

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: cobbledik on March 28, 2012, 12:40:55 pm
the cinch comes to mind as additional (lighter and lower haul-line mm ability than grirgi) non-teethed device that can work in the like the grigri in the place of the minitrax/microtrax. I'd imagine the friction would negate some of the benefit.

Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: Baltoro on March 28, 2012, 12:55:07 pm
I'd certainly agree that a gri-gri or cinch would not be an ideal replacement but what it a device was engineered with minimal friction in mind with no teeth but for a hauling or jugging application?
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: cobbledik on March 28, 2012, 01:54:30 pm
Don't most non-teethed progress capture devices work either off of a spring or a work-against-pull-of-force-or-gravity, thus, by their very design introduce fiction into the system?

What would a non-toothy design look like without those two friction-based styles of progress capture? 
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: Baltoro on March 28, 2012, 02:26:54 pm
That's the trick I guess is getting the grab to grab without causing a massive amount of friction. I would imagine there's a certain amount of friction in toothed devices as well as the teeth are under spring tension, obviously not to the extent that a rope runs through a gri-gri type friction but there is some.

Anybody ever tried hauling with a silent partner? I've never used one personally for anything but theoretically it might work, eliminate teeth from the equation and run with minimal friction.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: mhudon on March 28, 2012, 02:45:29 pm
Hmmm... the Silent Partner would definitely not work.

I'm sure the teeth damage the rope and begin the tearing of it, but wouldn't a Gri-gri be able to "pinch off" the rope if enough force were applied to it? Actually, I think even Petzl states that it will start slipping at a certain point.

The spring is not the issue with a rope grab. The cam is designed to push the rope into the opposite slot more so by the downward weight on it than the spring force. The more weight, the more force, and on and on. The teeth don't let the rope slip so it eventually breaks (I'm thinking of the guy jumaring the static rope along with the haul bag accident in Zion a few years ago).
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: Baltoro on March 28, 2012, 03:09:00 pm
What was the Zion accident? Guy jugging a haul line with the haul bags weigting it from below?

I guess a Silent Partner would grab when pulled on hard from the "wrong" side.

I can't imagine the pinching action of the gri-gri would be good for a rope longterm but if you were hauling or jugging and it wasn't pinching in the same spot for an extended period of time I would imagine the rope would recover. In practice it wouldn't ever pinch in the same spot for more than a few minutes, if not seconds but I'm sure it would need to pinch without damaging for hours and hours if not days and days to be certifiable. I get that the spring on a toothed device is just to get the teeth to bite and that's where the teeth come in to do the dirty work. I'm just saying there's some level of friction there, however minimal.

I don't see any current device that would do the trick, it would just be interesting to see what the companies could come up with if building a hauler/jugging tool without teeth was the task.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: SLareau on March 28, 2012, 03:39:23 pm
Would a Petzl ID fit the bill for what you are thinking of?  You definitely could use one instead of a toothed progress capture pulley at the top of the system. You probably wouldn't want to haul 1:1 through a ID though. The radius of bending/pinching in an ID would be more favorable than a grirgri.  At least lowering out really jammed bags would be easier than it would be with a mini-trax.

http://www.petzl.com/en/pro/self-braking-descenders-0/id-l (http://www.petzl.com/en/pro/self-braking-descenders-0/id-l)
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: Baltoro on March 28, 2012, 03:49:55 pm
I've used an ID for commerical rope work and while ideal for a gri-gri and then some application I don't think it's the ticket.

I guess I should back this conversation up and say that I have a Kong with teeth I haul through. I have a Mini-trax I use like Mark does. I jug like the rest of us (without more grunting though) so I'm no stranger to teeth. It's purely a theoretical discussion for me as I think the tools that are out there already do a pretty good job.

Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: mhudon on March 28, 2012, 04:00:34 pm
The Zion accident was where a guy was jugging a static line with the haul bag already hanging from it and Petzl Pro-Traxion (that was not safetied properly) all of a sudden let 10 or 15 feet of rope slip through it. The climber and haul bag "fell" the 10 or 15 feet, the static line did not provide any dynamic catch, the climber's jugs pinched the rope off and he fell to his death.

The whole premise for me starting this thread was that we are putting ourselves in a similar situation when we rap down to Far End Haul a bag. Sure, there are lots of things that are not similar but still, you're flopping around on the end of a static rope with you and the haul bags weight on it, secured by a toothed cam up at the top anchor.

It's not really something that I'm really concerned about but it was just something I wanted to make sure everyone was thinking about. The easiest solution is to put a couple of Klemhiest knots below the toothed cam.

Purely theoretical, 98% Yes, 2% No.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: Baltoro on March 28, 2012, 04:13:04 pm
That to me is one of the biggest appeals to a Kong style setup or the old pulley and jug method; the ability to take the teeth out of the equation easily when so desired is nice.

Scary with the Zion thing. It seems even jugging a weighted haul line is somewhat taboo or at least you don't hear a lot of people doing it or admitting to doing it. It would make sense in a team of three scenario where A leads, B lowers C and the bags out, C jugs and then hauls while A shortfixes and B cleans. That requires C having the balls/ovaries to ride the bags out and then jug with them below him/her. Probably no big deal on an overnight but for a longer wall with supplies for three that would be a bit unnerving to say the least. I'd throw a Shunt on there as a moveable back-up since no knots could be tied and no gri-gri added for security.

If you removed the teeth from the system above would you jug on the haul line with the bags hanging below you? I guess essentially you're doing this a bit in Far-End hauling, which prompted the thread but it somehow seems different to do this on every pitch in the scenario above.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: cobbledik on March 28, 2012, 06:15:32 pm
Quote
It seems even jugging a weighted haul line is somewhat taboo or at least you don't hear a lot of people doing it or admitting to doing it

Hmmmm, this is what I did when I ascended after fixing to Ahwanee on Leaning Tower.

Haul rope fixed to the anchors at the top of pitch 2. Lead line fixed to Ahwanee above that. I lowered out on the haul line along with the bag with a 20m bit of 8mm utility line. Once out in space, jugged up to anchor.

Rope was tied directly to the anchor, not in the haul device because I use the 2:1 hauling ratchet to attach the toothed minitrax to the haul line once I'm at the anchor. This is how I always have it set up normally, placing the toothed cam/pulley on the only once I'm hauling. If I have to go down to fix shit, just hard tie a knot to the anchor and disengage the teeth on the cam.

I use a Petzl micender as my backup when I jug a weighted line, no teeth, made to slip a bit for a "dynamic" catch if needed - irrelevant if the ascenders are still attached to the line, but I think of the backup as for my ascenders coming off the line, not something happening up top. I like the microcender more than the shunt because of the huge difference in weight. Every time I hold the shunt in my hand, I figure out ways to justify not putting such a brick into my bag.
Title: Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
Post by: mhudon on March 28, 2012, 06:24:43 pm
I don't see any problem to ascending a correctly anchored, weighted line. I also attach my 2:1 the same way cobbledik does.