Big Walls Forum

Big Wall Index => Big Wall Forum => Topic started by: mungeclimber on October 21, 2015, 02:10:16 pm

Title: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: mungeclimber on October 21, 2015, 02:10:16 pm
an interesting list of ethical offenses with increasing order of impact (or 'offense' importance) was proposed on supertopo recently. Without dipping into the morass on that thread, does the ordering seem right as a general principle?  What mitigating factors are there?

For example, is an enhanced hook placement to replace a trenched head placement more sustainable and thus less blameworthy?


 Upgrading 1/4" bolts in an anchor to 3/8" or 1/2"
 Adding a 2nd, 3rd, 4th belay bolt
 Changing rivets to bolts on an A1 climb
 Adding bolts to an anchor that was previously gear only
 Changing rivets to bolts on an A2 or higher climb
 Changing trenched heads to bolts
 Adding bolts to a bolt ladder to make it less reachy
 Enhancing aid placements
 Adding bolts to a bolt ladder to remove challenges at the start/end of the ladder
 Adding bolts to bypass a free or aid crux
 Chipping free holds

everyone is okay with upgrading most existing anchor bolts with beefier bolts.

everyone is NOT okay with chipping free holds to make the climb go at an easier grade.



Some additional 'offenses' proposed...

 Adding bolts to replace hook moves [as a full retrobolt]

 Adding bolts to bypass entire piton pitches, so they go "clean" [as a variant pitch]

 Adding bolts to bypass wide cracks [as a short section of bolts to bypass a short section of wide]

 Adding bolts to bypass thin cracks, pin scars, or other difficult clean placements [as a short section of bolts to bypass a short section of thin]

 Adding bolts on a free climb to reduce the runouts [full retrobolt without express FA author 'ok']

Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: Prod on October 21, 2015, 05:08:13 pm
And not Bigwall related.

Remember when Kurt Smith and Mike Pont put up a route in Clear Creek Canyon and bolted a climbing hold to the wall to clear the crux? That was pushing the ethics... I think it was Sonic Youth?

Good write up Munge, I might move a few of the middle offences around a bit but agree with the 1st and last.

Cheers,

Prod.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: mungeclimber on October 21, 2015, 10:53:20 pm
credit goes to those guys on the thread. But it really is an interesting way of looking at it. Sort of intuitive, but hadn't really stack ranked them before. But some things are worse and some are non-issues/nice to haves.

For instance, I don't see a principled basis on which to object to a variation pitch that includes a bolt ladder. A full bolt ladder pitch though is not kosher. There are 'big wall' routes recognized that are a couple of pitch variations with hardware. How to justify the difference? Not sure one can.

The more detail that goes into an ethical scenario, the more the pendulum can swing to the blameworthiness or praiseworthiness of the effort.

the steeped in tradition we can be, the more that ethical pendulum swings toward conserving what he wave since it is a limited resource.



wait, what? I'm a conservative? 

FML
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: Prod on October 22, 2015, 10:05:45 am
Gray is a hard area, Especially the shades where you can see the logic either way.

I'd say we have to err on the side of conservatism as well, I think most people would with the exception of maybe Erik Sloan. But where in the spectrum is that? Interesting topic without all of the Chest Thumping.

So why would the FA trench a head as opposed to placing a rivet?

Prod.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: Skully on October 23, 2015, 05:42:01 am
Dunno, Prod....maybe head kit was in hand, looked like a placement but not quite...drill packed away.  I'm just guessing here.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: mungeclimber on October 23, 2015, 10:20:19 am
A small head kit is lighter than a bolt kit. Just a suspicion on my part as a contributing factor for trade routes. 
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: Prod on October 23, 2015, 10:58:19 am
Interesting.

Seems to me that a trenched head is worse ethically than a bolt, but easier?

I was amazed on the 1st pitch of Mescalito with the number of heads that looked as if the cracks they were in would definitely take small nuts. Heads in general are not pretty.

Prod.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: cobbledik on October 23, 2015, 11:16:54 am
A string of proper heads with a single blank section where you choose trench or rivet, the trenched head fits the character of the pitch more than a rivet.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: mungeclimber on October 23, 2015, 11:43:41 am
consistency for consistency sake?  "blank" section seems that a rivet in that case would be more sustainable, sustainability is a laudable goal.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: cobbledik on October 23, 2015, 08:11:42 pm
Sustainability must be balanced with the experience of the user group otherwise the point of starting the first placement off the ground is moot.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: Prod on October 24, 2015, 07:11:06 am
"Sustainability must be balanced with the experience of the user group otherwise the point of starting the first placement off the ground is moot."

I have no idea what this statement means.

Prod.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: Skully on October 24, 2015, 11:12:04 am
I think he's saying think about what you're doing, do it right (ie..rivet versus bathook or some such) or don't proceed at all. :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: cobbledik on October 24, 2015, 04:06:34 pm
Sort of. I'm saying that the experience of climbing the route has to be taken into account as much as sustainability is. A string of copperheads with a trenched head in the middle is better for the user group(faist and climbers that follow) than one with a bolt or rivet in the middle (which significantly changed the character and pucker factor of the pitch).

The argument in favor of rivet over trenched head because the head will eventually blow and thus need a rivet can just as easily be thought of as, trench the head so the experience is there and when it does blow then that's sad and the community will place the rivet at that time.

Because let's be honest here. Brutally honest. 99% of bigwall routes being put up now will never be climbed again or will be climbed very few times before fading into obscurity. Sustainability differences between a rivet and a trenched head for a route that has very little chance of becoming popular are moot at best. And if the argument is that a more sustainable route that is put up in the most impeccable possible method will become popular, then I hate to break it to you, most bigwall climbers today don't give a rats ass about how good the route is, they care if anyone they consider cool has climbed the route and if anyone will recognize the name of the route when they spray about it at the bridge or at the water cooler. And if you think to yourself, well I  care so that must mean something, remember that the mere fact that you're reading this website places you out of the population of most current bigwall climbers.

Modern Bigwall FA's and their effect upon the Rock is about as relevant and effectfull in the grand scope of things as whether you decide to pee on the rock or bring your off the wall with you after climbing any route that's not one of the trade routes.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: mungeclimber on October 25, 2015, 10:02:44 pm

I see what you're saying.


Quote
character and pucker factor of the pitch


But not all FAs are going to be danger riddled affairs like cutting edge A4.  So let me pose this; if the pucker factor is a quality to be preserved, why not an enhanced hook? Make it a really shitty enhanced hook so you're damn close to blowing it, and the string of heads?  Well, I think it has to do with not wanting danger as the ultimate goal, otherwise why aren't all routes just hooking affairs?  Sustainability is built into the game. You use stainless steel bolts, no? Why not go cheap? Why not haul off gear and rickety rivets?

Whether a route becomes a classic in 10 years, cannot be known antecedently to the climb.

I'm not suggesting there is a mandate to do a rivet in that case, I'm just suggesting that from one perspective a rivet is just as good as a trenched head, depending on the context.

 



Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: Skully on October 26, 2015, 08:00:55 am
You don't manufacture pucker factor. ..you just assess & decide if you can deal with it. If not, you should retreat. If you proceed, there's a responsibility to solve the puzzle that is before you in the best style possible. Sustainability is a factor, though it's not the only one.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: cobbledik on October 26, 2015, 08:23:21 am
Let me rephrase it munge,

"...character and pucker factor of a pitch (of which character is 90% of the importance and pucker is 10% of the importance. - or better yet, just character of a pitch because pucker factor is part of character and the effect of the word pucker to be considered manufacturing experience is too juicy to let go of and clouds the intent of the post)"

Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: Prod on October 26, 2015, 09:20:59 am
Pretty interesting evolved conversation. Glad I asked the question as I learned quite a bit.

Sort of a bummer that no one was called an unethical prick though.

Cheers,

Prod.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: mungeclimber on October 26, 2015, 09:32:12 am
I'm leaning toward Skull on this one. In a mostly self defined game, solving the problem in your best style, is really what 'character' of the climb becomes. So whether one strings it out, or cuts it down to A3 from A4 on an FA is really just a choice of which rules to apply. Not to get me wrong, there is pride in that sort of self overcoming of stringing it WAY out. The mental discipline, the character of oneself that is shown in the route, the risk placed on the partner and or the responsibility of mitigating risk to the partner are all part of it.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: cobbledik on October 26, 2015, 12:50:11 pm
Mitigating risk to partner is key. I've riveted around loose blocks that might have gone but also might have killed my belayer. The best character of any climb is when everyone comes home in one piece.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: mungeclimber on October 26, 2015, 01:03:13 pm
oh btw, you're an unethical prick Prod.









 :-D lol
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: *Mucci* on October 26, 2015, 07:08:54 pm
Quote
In a mostly self defined game, solving the problem in your best style, is really what 'character' of the climb becomes. So whether one strings it out, or cuts it down to A3 from A4 on an FA is really just a choice
%

That you, the leader get to make 100%. 

There Munge, i kicked out the "rules" part mostly because FA'st are generally outcasts that follow no RULEZ  ahhahh.  Perfect description Munge!

I have been on at least 2-3 real deal, modern A4-A5 pitches.  I was the first to climb these features.  I knew they would force me to rise up to the technical portion very quickly, and 6+ hours in maintain a steady head.

I drilled when I had reached my technical limit of climbing.  No rules, nobody telling me to push it, just me making a judgment call.
Those did not garner a A4-A5 rating.  Anybody can argue how many beaks need to be tipped out for A4 all day, but I know how far I pushed and feel that Nothing I have done is bonafide modern A4.  But My A4 is different than the other guys A4, and so on.


Pasting all the heads and beaks, diggin out placements, drilling the odd rivet, and then having to drill at least one fattie at the end of the pitch is all I  know how to do.

Guys are climbing A4 captain routes with >dozen nailed placements. On routes with heads etc..

Hard for me to wrap my head around what "Hard" is these days.

Hot damn I dig this thread!


If I am pasting half a dozen heads, and reach a weird spot, this is the way it goes down.

Try a beak, try it again, bounce  test it really hard.  Beak blows, grab a #2 head a shape it real thin and paste it.(Trademark KD)

Usually I drill when it starts getting all Western up there 8-)





 





Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: mungeclimber on October 26, 2015, 11:29:16 pm
Seriously! The one true constant in aid is that you go until you can't go, or drill. And that game is almost intrinsically self driven. the grades come after the fact.

Push a little here, push a little there. Build some skills. Reduce the drills. Make the heads, or end up deadz.

Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: mhudon on October 27, 2015, 02:20:41 pm
Do your best and forget the rest.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: Prod on October 29, 2015, 07:06:01 am
Anyone know who and when heads were invented?

Prod.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: cobbledik on October 29, 2015, 10:26:20 am
Forrest nuts made from softer material were used as mashies. No date for you.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: *Mucci* on October 29, 2015, 09:05:59 pm
Yeah Bill Forrest made the flat mashie thing, forgot the name, 70's.

Bridwell has a movie clip in which he states he invented the copperhead for the PO. or ZM I forgot that too.

I would like to know definitively.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: *Mucci* on October 29, 2015, 09:20:30 pm
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/177704/Who-first-used-copperheads-in-Yosemite

BAM!
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: cobbledik on November 08, 2015, 08:31:19 am
And of course, drilling convenience "anchor" bolts in the middle of a free pitch for aid practice should probably be placed on the list as well.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: lambone on November 08, 2015, 10:51:36 am
Just as a side note, Joe Marlay and I were surprised and kind of disgusted by how many drilled bathooks we climbed past on Aurora last month. A few of them were necessary to pass blank sections between features or rivets. But I lost track of how many times we climbed right past a hole by other means and didn't notice them until we were above it, saying "WTF!?"

For instance on the crux "A4" American Zone pitch Gnarly Marlay was hooking crumbling flakes just above the belay looking at ripping to the anchor and then was like, "oh wtf!? There's a bathooks right there!" Multiple times.

Anyway. I'm bringing some putty and a bag of granite dust up every route from now on to fill any hole that I can climb past. I'm just an average climber at best, and I'm only 5ft 9inches tall...if I can get by a move without a hole then anyone should be able to.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: cobbledik on November 08, 2015, 06:03:32 pm
I think clance is who you are talk to about bathrooms on aurora
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: *Mucci* on November 09, 2015, 11:39:23 am
Chuck said he drilled on P5 (American Zone?) 3 bathooks up and right after a few hooks.

Troy and him told Peter after they got down what they drilled because they could not find the "natural hooks"


As I remember they had just done a very early ascent of ZM and would have been in very good shape for Aurora which at the time was the 3rd ascent I believe.


Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: lambone on November 11, 2015, 10:19:03 am
Joe used natural hooks...even though a couple of them were exploding flakes of rock on us and I was pretty certain he was gunna whip onto the portaledge!

There are bathooks on most pitches on the route.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: cobbledik on November 11, 2015, 01:43:42 pm
Wow. Lowest common denominator I guess, not that bat hooks are that confidence inspiring
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: mhudon on November 11, 2015, 06:19:03 pm
How are the anchors on Aurora, Lambone.

When I go up there next spring I'll try to avoid as many bat hooks holes as I can and when I'm cleaning the pitch I'll fill them with epoxy.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: lambone on November 12, 2015, 10:46:30 pm
Anchors are all bomber ASCA bolts. Aside from the top of p4 which is natural with 2 fixed pins.
Title: Re: Schedule of Offenses?
Post by: mhudon on November 13, 2015, 09:09:34 am
Cool, thanks.