Author Topic: 2:1 or 2 hauls?  (Read 4227 times)

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Offline Caz

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2:1 or 2 hauls?
« on: May 04, 2011, 11:36:03 pm »
While soloing, if you had a load you couldn't move would you split it or use a mechanical advantage and do a single haul? I've never tried 2 haul lines, and imagine it's not too bad with a partner, but see issues solo. On a over hanging or traversing route I can see the ropes twisting, and on routes that your bag gets stuck, chances are, the 2nd bag will get stuck too.

So what would you do? I think I would use a 2:1 or even a 3:1, but I'm just curious what other people think. I've been doing a lot big wall thinking the last couple weeks. I think I'm gonna go solo something this month. Nothing that needs 2 hauls...


Zac
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Offline Erik Sloan

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2011, 12:04:53 am »
You're thinking right Zac. Every technique has it's place but throwing a little more mechanical advantage, via 2:1 or 3:1, can get you through the first few days of heaviness without adding too much unnecessary cluster.

Offline lambone

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2011, 01:41:57 am »
Pete has his 2:1 ratchet dialed in but I tried it once and got totally clustered. I speant more time resetting then hauling.

I've only soloed where I couldn't 1:1 haul once, and what worked well for me was a 3 to 1. The key is to put a weight on that lower hauling jug and send it down as far as you can. Also, pulleys on each turn helps. And like nanook says, don't plan on moving too fast the first few days.

Unless you are doing like a 7+ day route you should try to keep it under the 1:1 weight limit. imho

Offline cobbledik

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2011, 08:51:30 am »
I've been able to get Pete's 2:1 ratchet to work well (used it on the first few pitches of freeblast) The main benefit of it is how quickly you can convert from 2:1 to 1:1 (if only part of the pitch is slabby)

THere's something soul-destroying about the short throw of each pump on the ratchet versus a longer body haul.
Sometimes the difference between a layman and a journeyman is simply what he is allowed to believe himself to be.

Offline YetAnotherDave

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2011, 09:00:09 am »
Unless you are doing like a 7+ day route you should try to keep it under the 1:1 weight limit. imho
I agree with trying to keep loads low for short trips, but the other factor in hauling effort is friction - routes which have slabs low down (which is most of them in my neck of the woods) make hauling so sucky.  I've so far gotten by with 1:1 on a block roll, but the first day's hauling seems like so much more work then anything else that I'm tempted to try the 2:1 ratchet next time out.   Anyone have tips/tricks for using the ratchet (simpler explanations than Pete's appreciated :)

--dave

Offline mhudon

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2011, 09:29:25 am »
I have 2:1 and even 3:1 totally wired and can set it up in minutes. On a 2:1 system I'm pumping off a foot to 18 inches every time merely by sitting down. Don't forget that I weigh far less than any of you, 125 pounds. It amazes me that you guys are willing to work so hard to haul, I could pretty much drink tea and talk on the phone while hauling my standard wall load these days (200/250 pounds).

Given that you have a finite amount of calories in your body and haul bag, it makes sense to me to conserve them and not kill yourself by hauling 1:1. My motto on my solo and walls since has been "If you're manhandling something, you're fucking up"!

Zac, if you really want to buff out the system, PM me.

Offline Caz

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2011, 10:50:41 am »
I don't go too crazy when I try and solo something. I was just thinking about if I was to do a 7+ day wall like  lambone  said. I was just thinking out loud...

 I've got the Chongo hauling ratchet dialed. That was a Chongo thing right? A bunch of people credit Pete for the haul ratchet...


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Offline mhudon

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2011, 11:17:30 am »
Yeah, it's the Chongo ratchet.

Offline lambone

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2011, 11:23:02 am »
Mark, I hear that but personally I'd rather put my back into it and get her up in 1/3rd the time then spend the other 2/3s chillin, eatin/drinking/smokin...etc. Hauling just seems like suffering no matter what the weight or mechanical system. I'd just assume get it done asap.

That said, there is a pain threshold. And I'll work a system in if I hit it.

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2011, 11:27:37 am »
yes, but manhandling the pig and beating the hell out of it can be so satisfaying sometime too... usually the frustration comes from the pig, so definitely need to spend more time in big wall clinics (no, big wall clinics have nothing to do with getting a shot of penicillin)

Offline lambone

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2011, 11:42:50 am »
Also, hauling 1:1 with heavy loads is a bit of a brutal art. To do so without killing your arms and back anyway.
 
I think Mike. Has posted a fair bit on this. And his prefered method is two hauls. 

If there is any chance the bag could get stuck then you definately want to incorporate a far-end haul rig.

Offline mhudon

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2011, 11:57:39 am »
hmmm.. yeah, when I was young, suffering was part of my wall experience, nowadays, I consider it an art to not suffer.

BTW I'll bet anyone here ten bucks that I can haul a 200 pound bag as fast as any one of you can haul it 1:1. AND I won't puke when I'm done.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 12:31:10 pm by mhudon »

Offline johnmac

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2011, 12:57:40 pm »
2:1 for sure. No point hurting yourself on the first few days of a route. Use mechanic advantage wisely and listen to Mark!



Offline cobbledik

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2011, 01:34:12 pm »
Haven't had it happen yet where I didn't finish hauling before my second got to me, but I assume that one of the better aspects of the Pete/Chongo 2:1 ratchet is that you can 2:1 until your 2nd gets to you, then quickly switch over to a 1:1 space haul.
Sometimes the difference between a layman and a journeyman is simply what he is allowed to believe himself to be.

Offline lambone

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2011, 04:25:11 pm »
hmmm.. yeah, when I was young, suffering was part of my wall experience, nowadays, I consider it an art to not suffer.

BTW I'll bet anyone here ten bucks that I can haul a 200 pound bag as fast as any one of you can haul it 1:1. AND I won't puke when I'm done.

I'll take that bet. Maybe you are way faster then Pete, but I've done side by side hauls with him. (Mesc and Seas/PO). We both finished our pitches at the same time and I was in my legde eating dinner before he had finished, and he was workin hard the whole time. Personally I'll just get it done and suffer for less time. I have rigged 2:1 and 3:1s low on long walls though when hauling was just too heavy.

Offline mhudon

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2011, 04:59:24 pm »
Haven't had it happen yet where I didn't finish hauling before my second got to me, but I assume that one of the better aspects of the Pete/Chongo 2:1 ratchet is that you can 2:1 until your 2nd gets to you, then quickly switch over to a 1:1 space haul.

Why bother switching? 2:1 is so easy! If I arrive at the anchor before John has finished hauling, I ready my rack for the next pitch, look at the topo and take photos. It's a pleasure cruise, not a speed climb!

Lambone, Pete is another case altogether!

Offline Mike.

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2011, 07:50:16 pm »
Part of the idea of doing 1:1 is you don't need to haul a 200+ lb bag.

I'm not saying one method is better than the other, but there's nothing compelling me to change what I do. I'll keep doing it with open mind to refinements. I haven't given 2: or 3:1 systems more than a couple of tries. Between that experience and what my peers who have used the methods have told me, I needn't bother dialing in the system. (I probably would if I weighed 125.) I like having an extra bag up high for trash; spent bottles dangling around are a prime spot for lines to get hung up.

Thinking back, I did have two bags twist around each other once after let out. I alternated hauls and was able to get them both to the belay without rapping down or struggling unduly. They "unwound" as they got closer to the belay without any scary looking rope-on-rope friction.

Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline mhudon

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2011, 08:39:54 pm »
Mike,

If you put together a real exact list of what you need on a wall, food, water, alchohol, gear, sleeping gear, etc. for two people for a 5.5 day route you'll get to 200 pounds really fast. (a Metolius Half Dome haul bags weighs 7.7 pounds, an El Cap is 8. A 16 ounce Cobra weighs 1 pound, water weighs 8.33 pounds per gallon (4 quarts) not including its container.

Everything weighs something and it all adds up. Hell, a Clif bar and a fruit bar weigh 4 ounces. Four Clif bars and four fruit bars add up to one pound. A Metolius Double portaledge weighs 15 pounds, its fly is 5.5 pounds, 20.5 pounds total. So now, with only your haul bag and portaledge and fly you're at 38 pounds! (Two single portaledges and their flys weight a lot more than 20.5 pounds also)!

Most people estimate the weight of their bags. I have dozens of State Certified Scales at work and I've weighed everything on them.

All in all, to each his own but at this point in my life,  I'll take the slower, easier route any day.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 08:47:50 pm by mhudon »

Offline lambone

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2011, 09:56:03 pm »
Mark, I think you are missing that Mike likes 2 seperate hauls to split the load.

And yeah, pete is a completely different story!

I think ultimately the best bet is to know all the options and adjust accordingly.

Offline Mike.

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2011, 06:17:28 am »
(Thx, 'bone)

I can totally dig that, Mark. The comforts adds up fast.

I'm from the school of each having a bag for long partnered routes, each having single ledges and separate camps. I still like it like that, but I've used a double a bunch too. We would haul each bag on its own line so even on 13 day routes it was do-able 1:1 for 160 pound guys. That's why we don't have 200 pound loads to deal with. That's easier for us.


Back to Zac's issue... Various methods can get the job done. Exactly how to go about it should be clear as mud at this point.

Cheers...
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 09:02:42 am by Mike. »
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline mhudon

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2011, 08:54:21 am »
You're right, I missed that.

I'd probably be amazed to see what I could haul if I weighed 40 more pounds.

At the end of the day, it's come down to the fact that I'm a total technique geek and simply love fiddling around and figuring out trick ways to do stuff. It's all good though, your way, my way, any way!
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 11:49:37 am by mhudon »

Offline lambone

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2011, 11:13:24 am »
My favorite method is to short fix and let my partner worry about the bag. ;)

Offline Caz

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2011, 10:54:34 pm »
I'm a big fan of 1:1 hauling and try not to have bags I can't haul, but being 230 lbs helps being able to do that...

Thanks for the info guys...


Zac
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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2011, 11:04:02 pm »
1:1 you get what you get. Anything else is a tradeoff. It's a bit disheartening to get half(or less) of what you pull up.
Effort notwithstanding. I dunno.  I manage. Cheers!

Offline waulrat

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2011, 02:27:39 pm »
Oh man, hauling for me is hard. Poor technique I'm sure, and no extra weight on my side makes it a task. I need to practice for sure. I'm a fan of the Chongo 2:1 haul system, although I have yet to use it while climbing.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 02:29:10 pm by waulrat »
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Offline mhudon

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2011, 08:53:57 am »
If you decide to use a 2:1 system I strongly suggest you go out to a local tree or gym and work on it a bit to really dial it in. Once you really understand it, it'll work great.

Offline lambone

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2011, 04:32:49 pm »
don't you have a video of your rig somewhere Mark?

Offline mhudon

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2011, 05:16:00 pm »
No, I should do one though. John has the rig right now

Offline YetAnotherDave

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2011, 05:50:33 pm »
Speaking of videos mark, your continuous loop vid seems to be gone...

http://www.bigwalls.com/forum2/index.php?topic=972

Offline mhudon

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Re: 2:1 or 2 hauls?
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2011, 06:08:46 pm »
Thanks, it's fixed now. I moved my vids from Vimeo to YouTube recently.