Author Topic: Cross post: Limbing at El Cap  (Read 2404 times)

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Offline Mike.

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Cross post: Limbing at El Cap
« on: June 15, 2011, 09:43:56 am »
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1515838/Sawing-Branches-off-Trees-on-Approaches-El-Cap-etc

Very disturbing that signs point to this damage being a big wall climber, Erik Sloan, aka nanook. Not surprising, though, considering past indiscretions.

The point being: Wall climbers have an unprecedented relationship with NPS in YV, and this sort of renegade vandalism endangers it. Not limbing is good; virtually nobody needs to by reminded of that.

Discuss...
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline Caz

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Re: Cross post: Limbing at El Cap
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2011, 11:21:37 am »
Has anyone seen him do it? I'm not trying to take sides or anything, but I don't want to point fingers without proof. The bolting issue is something different. Just because he's been seen doing one thing doesn't mean he is the reason for all things wrong.


If there is proof I retract my statement completely.


Alright, you've talked me into it. I'm off to go see for myself...


Zac
I do this for fun...

Offline Mike.

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Re: Cross post: Limbing at El Cap
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2011, 11:51:23 am »
Zac, looking at the damage won't prove anything. The evidence is circumstantial.

I tend to believe the people on the inside track in Yosemite. Someone with a known record of using tools to make wall climbs more convenient for masses of people (in opposition to NPS rules, LNT principles and generally-accepted Yosemite rebolting tactics) is a likely suspect. Especially when he has no apparent compunction, no explanation to the acts, and has operated with ill regard for the wishes of the majority for years.

In the larger picture, I don't give a shit who it is. I want the destruction to stop.

Cheers.
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline Mike.

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Re: Cross post: Limbing at El Cap
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2011, 11:57:41 am »
Thanks for the PM, man.

Someone just informed me he has personally witnessed Sloan limbing in a different location than El Cap. The evidence is beyond circumstantial.

Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline Caz

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Re: Cross post: Limbing at El Cap
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2011, 04:23:11 pm »
Copy that. If it's been witnessed then there is no defense. It's a shame it's come to this, face to face he is a nice guy...
I do this for fun...

Offline goatboy

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Re: Cross post: Limbing at El Cap
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2011, 09:53:13 am »
Any word on what the NPS is going to do about it, they obviously have some evidence.
hell, they kicked Chongo out of the park for less damage then what is going on here.

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Cross post: Limbing at El Cap
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2011, 03:16:14 pm »
I've posted some thoughts already on the topic of trail work elsewhere, and defining limbing hasn't been made clear to me but it has the sound of large tree branches, not cutting back brush to minimize braided trails.

I'd caution that if there isn't an eye witness willing to post up their first hand accusation, that secondary posts are still hearsay until proven otherwise.

One example of actual limbing was not in the NPS, but elsewhere, and was a large diameter tree/bush from the photo, and not done thoughtfully or with an eye to minimize the impact, and then photographed and put in a climbing mag. That kind of activity both by the cutter and the photographer is unacceptable. Not all lines must go.




Offline Mike.

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Re: Cross post: Limbing at El Cap
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2011, 03:58:21 pm »
"I'd caution that if there isn't an eye witness willing to post up their first hand accusation, that secondary posts are still hearsay until proven otherwise."

Munge, go look at the PM yourself. Hearsay: from me, technically yes, but not embellished or distorted in any way. I'm not making anything up here.

In this case the person has a reason to remain anonymous (which I respect), and I don't blame him.

Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Cross post: Limbing at El Cap
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2011, 06:12:13 pm »
I don't have access to the database, just the UI. The pms are only on the database.


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Re: Cross post: Limbing at El Cap
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2011, 06:59:39 pm »
Well, Whomever it may be, This shit cannot go on.

Offline xtrmecat

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Re: Cross post: Limbing at El Cap
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2011, 09:07:56 am »
I wish to weigh in on this for a couple of reasons. First I find it unacceptable to do what it is that Eric is up to. And second, a;lthough it will damage my reputation in this community, give testimony and first hand experience as to Erics wall ethics and morals.

  Cutting the branches out for a larger trail, is totally uneeded. I have made nearly 25 trips up and down the side of elcap over the last 5 years, and never once did I get so brushed in, or hung up that I consider sawing to be an asset. This includes a couple of laps up the from the Zodiac pullout prior to the nose approach.

  Now the embarassing part of the story. In January, between semesters, I borrowed some aliens, grabbed my entire rack and set off on a solo venture with Zodiac as my goal. I had done the first five pitches as a party of three the previous May, so I knew it was very within my ability, and the rack I had was at least the same, or more. I went to the thinner spot at the top of p! and couldn't get anything to go in the roof, and took a couple pretty good falls, stripping a few pieces each time. Repeated falls on the anchor, which I had built with a cordalette around a couple sharp edges, just started nagging me hard, so I rapped early on day one, with my tail between my legs. The anchor was fine.

  I retooled with my hooks, and every small piece I had the previous morning, thinking I would just worm my way through one more move with a hook jammed in something in an unorthdox manner, or take a pin and tap tap tap a brass nut enough to hold my fat ass for the needed move. I found that I had bent my camhook pretty badly on the fall, and the other camhook that fits got obliterated on P5 of T-trip last year in a fall. Long and short, I failed to get anything to stick or hold, and I hung out for about 8 hours, falling from the same two placements. I could have sworn that 00 Metolious units fit it last year, and I had two of em. I ended up putting in two lightly tapped in pins left of the route, in the roof, equalized them, stepped down onto my best tipped out alien, and hand placed two more place pins and equalized them, and then rapped from the mank pin anchor on my haul line, cleaning the pitch and using the lead gear as a back up to the rapp, which I really did not think would hold shit.

  Upon arrival at the deck, I pulled my rope, leaving a nest of about $100 worth of pins and biners and slingage, packed my stuff, tucked my tail, and came down. Now for the meat of the deal.

  When I got down and hit the road, I bumped into Eric, and we talked for some time about the ordeal, and the conclusion we drew was without camhooks, like three of the larger Moses units, it may not go with the crack maybe tighter in January. Ok acceptable. Then the words that came out next just floored me. I was told I should have just nailed my way across this section, and continued. I stopped the conversation there and tried to let Eric know that I was in way over my head, and obviously above my ability. He then told me that it would be a service to others to nail my way across this section, and if it was to do damage, it would be best to fix the pins and leave them. I found this way out of line, and was invited to stop by the bar for further chit chat.

  Another uninvolved camp 4 resident and I did in fact seek out the warmth of the bar, and Eric did in fact find time to talk further. I was pretty much of the impression that I should nail my way up anything I wish to attempt, and that I would be not only climbing it like a real climber, but doing a service to those that would follow. I found the attitude and ethics so astoundingly out of line, I did nothing other than enjoy my soda until he got busy.

  That is why I think the man is of pretty low standards, and woudl stoop to any level on any subject, and be all smiles while sticking it to the climbing community. It is my opinion that he would limb, log, excavate, chip, drill, with or without power, and not loose a moments rest from it. Draw your own conclusions.

  I would also like to take this opportunity to appologize for the two off route pins I whacked into the roof out left of the route. I saw it as the least of all the evils to get off in one piece. Leaving several pieces (aliens) that did not belong to me seemed more moral, but I cannot afford to replace them, nor can I find them to purchase should I have the money. I camhooked several moves to get up there, and saw no possibility of down aiding a couple of places, I did really look. I am not only sorry, but admission is embarassing. Not only a blow to my ego as to my ability, but commiting a sin when no one was there, and then copping to it way after the fact, kind of chickenshit in my book.

  Burly Bob

Offline Durin

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Re: Cross post: Limbing at El Cap
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2011, 04:06:06 pm »
I've seen so much criticism of Erik on these forums...
Why don't you all get out of your cubicles, show up at the bridge and confront him in person?

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Cross post: Limbing at El Cap
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2011, 06:14:05 pm »
I wish to weigh in on this for a couple of reasons. First I find it unacceptable to do what it is that Eric is up to. And second, a;lthough it will damage my reputation in this community, give testimony and first hand experience as to Erics wall ethics and morals.

  Cutting the branches out for a larger trail, is totally uneeded. I have made nearly 25 trips up and down the side of elcap over the last 5 years, and never once did I get so brushed in, or hung up that I consider sawing to be an asset. This includes a couple of laps up the from the Zodiac pullout prior to the nose approach.


Bob, just so I understand, you're not saying you actually saw Eric cut trees, correct?


Separately, the use of pins is an ethical question, and serious props for making that choice to say "i'm in too deep". I'd like to think I would say something similar, but those are hard choices.  On the other end, cutting branches in a National Park is criminal, not just ethical.  So to say that someone's 'character' on wall ethics is indicative, or causal, of their willingness to do something criminal is a logical jump many of us aren't willing to make without more evidence. By way of example, the courts use a rule of evidence #404 of the FRE, that character evidence is inadmissable to prove the thing accussed of. There needs to be something more.



To be clear I'm not condoning tree cutting for a trail in Yosemite. But since it has occurred we definitely want to say to EVERYONE 'we shouldn't be pulling that shit' because access will be damaged.


Offline Mike.

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Re: Cross post: Limbing at El Cap
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2011, 10:17:29 pm »
Mr. Bob, you tried your best and had a conscience. That's all the honor you need. I don't see self-rescue as something you should apologize for--good work.

Durin, stop being a simpleton. You've failed at arbitration--try another angle.
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline Durin

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Re: Cross post: Limbing at El Cap
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2011, 10:48:56 am »
I don't think I really know enough about this whole debate to really weigh in. I can say that I've spent a bunch of time at the bridge, and Erik's always there, never getting flak from anyone.

Then I go back to the forums, and all I see is him getting criticized.

Go back to the bridge, no one's saying anything to him. I ask a couple people that I know frequent bigwalls.com and no one seems to have an opinion.

Return home, go back online, and find everyone still bitchin'.

Mike, please don't call me a simpleton.

Offline Mike.

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Re: Cross post: Limbing at El Cap
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2011, 11:14:29 am »
"I don't think I really know enough about this whole debate to really weigh in."

Yet you have and continue to.

You've implied the big wall community is hiding or too intimidated to say anything directly to the perp. I will agree that some people are being awfully quiet. People who, IMO if not for some association with the perp, would be railing as they have in the past against pussification techniques. This is part of why the perp is emboldened to continue the destruction.

I'm in no rush to have a personal conversation with someone who doesn't give direct answers and has proven for many years in many incidents (we know of) he doesn't care about anything but his destructive via-ferrata agenda.
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.