Author Topic: Daisy Chains and Tethers  (Read 5105 times)

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Offline mhudon

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Daisy Chains and Tethers
« on: August 28, 2011, 11:15:42 am »
Guys,

Given all the hoopla about daisy chains and tethers these days I'm trying to come up with a fail safe/multi-use product for myself.

Given that if you use the Metolius PAS, that you must never have any slack in it (if it's clipped in, at its end, to the anchor and you move up so your waist is even with the anchor and the fall, since the thing does not stretch, the force on your body is going to cause serious damage to you, or it might break and you'll die anyway. Either way, with the bodily damage you'll suffer, you'll wish you were dead).

Another problem with this item is that if you are using it as a tether while aid climbing, and then take a daisy fall onto it, you'll either 1-rip the piece you're on, 2-it'll break and cause severe damage to your body or 3-it'll cause severe damage to you body and you'll wish you were dead.

Those loop-loop daisies have similar problems since the attachment between the loops can break, causing you to fall further, and, if you are clipped into the end correctly, will cause the same effect at the situation described above.

The Adjustable Yates daisy is made of nylon (I believe) so it should not kill you if you fall on it, but that buckle cutting the webbing is a concern of mine.

The Metolius and Petzl adjustable daisies are lightweight and are both rated to only 300 pounds, so although they are the best choice as daisies they should not be used to anchor yourself or even used to attach yourself to your jugs when cleaning.

These days, a lot of aid climbers use daisies on every move. I learned how to rest step and rarely use a daisy. I use an adjustable fifi hook in those cases and have used a Metolius Adjustable Daisy clipped to the piece I'm testing in case it blows so I don't drop it.

I'm looking for something that I can use to anchor myself to my jugs and to anchor myself temporarily to the anchor as I move around. When not soloing, I'm tied to the end of the rope but when soloing, am not. Those two situations have different needs and I'm searching for an item that will solve both problems.

Right now, I'm thinking of going back to the 9/16 inch tied daisy we used to make BITD, figuring it's webbing so it will stretch, but it will also give me full strength for anchors and jugging.

What do all of you do?

Offline Garbonzo

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2011, 03:18:45 pm »
I just use the Yates, sort of the best compromise I've found.  I'm intentional about not leaving heaps of slack in them even when they aren't doing anything for me (slab), slower, but I have zero desire to ever experience a daisy fall.  I hate fifi's and just don't use them.

I've also tried the ascender/8mm dynamic rope.  I wore a hole in my pinky cinching them up, and also found jugging to be problematic (had to tie knots or the ascenders I was using could extend out fully out of reach when unloaded).  Overall I liked a lot of the system, especially having dynamic rope in the system in case of a daisy fall.  But, it was more awkward than the Yates so I want back.

I think I'm in the same boat, and want something that is overall a bit better...
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 03:20:39 pm by Garbonzo »

Offline Mike.

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2011, 04:01:05 pm »
A pair of sewn webbing pocketed daisies is probably the closest to a "standard" rig. I've known many who use it (almost everyone I've wall climbed with); I do also. (Many supplement it with an adjustable daisy or fifi.) Nylon does have a slight stretch advantage over Spectra (and abrasion resistance IME), but I think that the bodily fears of small falls on static material are highly overblown. I've fallen onto static a few times and, yea, it's a hard stop, but not a show stopper. Maybe it looks more dangerous on paper or in a lab; I'm not buying the hype on this brought up in recent years. If I thought it would make a big diff I would buy dynamic Perlon daisies like those available commercially (Blue Water, Fixe?) or make my own.

The main danger IMO is the potential it has to rip your last piece before you can get the daisy off it and the rope clipped to it. A Shorty Screamer between your daisy and harness sounds like it might help. I'm not on board with that m.o., but not saying it wouldn't help. I'm suspicious of the activation force, don't want the additional cluster-age, don't want to have to bring a spare, don't want to buy too-short daisies to accommodate them.

Mark, what are you testing your gear on if the adj fifi is the keeper leash? Regular daisies are great for waist testing; don't need any separate gear or actions. Test; it holds; walk up. Are you one of those guys that gets in your aiders and tries to take a whipper jumping up and down on the piece you're on? If that's how you test, I can partially see the normal daisy set up being questionable. I almost never test that way, and have pulled out plenty of bad gear testing (without falling). I find this to be the most important use of a daisy while leading. That and working as a keeper for both aiders and placed pieced not clipped in with the rope.

Not sure why a need to be on dynamic material on jugs. You're jugging a dynamic rope already, yes? No? You're jugging a static haul line? That's yet another reason I don't use static haul lines. Would a dynamic connection keep the jug teeth from stripping the sheath and cutting the rope in some sort of "fall"? At that point of postulation, it's probably best to not climb at all (or at least to spend a little more effort mitigating factors which could create that situation to begin with).

For anchoring, I'm all about the daisies (two, preferably) with a short rope tie in. I never give them a thought and have never had a problem, both solo and partnered.
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Offline mhudon

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2011, 05:15:23 pm »
The adjustable fifi is, of course, just a hook that might or might not keep ahold of something that I'm testing. When I testing, so far, I'm standing comfortably in my lower aider and bouncing on the questionable piece. So far, I've not had a problem when the piece has failed.

I'm not too worried about any failures while jugging, dynamic tethers or static, dynamic rope vs. static don't bother me. I feel that those types of accidents are so far out of the realm of possibility that I'm not going to worry about it.  I was just thinking that attaching myself to my jugs with a sling that is only rated to 300 pounds is sort of scary, although, I guess, one would have to break and then you would have to exceed the limit of the other one before it would break.

I certainly don't want multiple cords, tethers, adj. daisies for multiple needs, my belay loop is already clustered enough.

Probably my biggest concern, believe it or not, is climbing with Max this fall on the South Seas. He hasn't been up on El Cap in years and I don't want to deck him out with a bunch of gear that have their own unique caveats.

I think what I'll probably do is simply tie up a few of the pocket daisies for him and let it go at that. They are full strength and have a bit of stretch. I don't want to kill the guy, ya know?

Offline Mike.

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2011, 05:38:23 pm »
Gotcha, Mark. Daisy/waist testing.

Good idea on the simple solution for your pal. Old school utility, hard to beat.
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Offline *Mucci*

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2011, 08:28:00 pm »
Mike-

I use a standard metolious daisy on each aider.

I also have a yates adj Daisy with a fifi attached to the end.  I don't use it unless it is steep.

The rig I used for years was a Yates adj on each aider, I would waist test with them all of the time.

I took a 5 foot (really fuc**** hard fall) on a yates adj which was clipped to a El cap ground booty alien!

No danger, back was ok and the daisy and alien went on to see many more summits FWIW in regards to strength.....

  If that had been on my current rig, I would be out of the game.

So I changed my approach to leading/testing when I went to my new setup.

My thought, for you as a soloist, is to use a 8mm/9mm dynamic cord with a clove hitch and stopper knott or somthing similar.

Dynamic, adjustable, and better than anything out there for burl and generall bomberness.

Offline Mike.

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2011, 08:27:27 am »
Gotcha, Mucci--thx for weighing in.

So, you ditched the adjusties after you fell on one for normal daisies? Scary, as we know they break with somewhat low force. How can you know what the outcome of that hard stop would have been on regular daisies? Assured by the fact that the fall might have been a foot or two longer?

I like the sound of the Perlon daisies. If I had an old half rope I'd like it even more.

Cheers...
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 10:21:40 am by Mike. »
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Offline mhudon

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2011, 08:58:25 am »
How would you make a perlon daisy?

Offline Garbonzo

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2011, 09:56:52 am »
How would you make a perlon daisy?

Get ~15-20' of 5mm perlon.  Tie it into a loop (thread 6" of 9/16" webbing over it for the far end if you want it to last, another for your tie in if you want).  Tie overhand knots every 4-6" with a little extra slack on one side.  Voila, perlon daisy.

Offline Mike.

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2011, 10:16:32 am »
Sounds great, Garbo. I was thinking I'd eschew all the pockets except for two on my upper jug daisy for steep and not-steep jugging. I don't really use the pockets for anything else. Maybe quickly clipping something to when moving gear around. Love the idea of fewest knots.
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Offline mhudon

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2011, 10:30:47 am »
Sweet! I have a spool of 5 mil I bought from Metolius before Grape Race/Tribal Rite that I still have a bunch of.

Would you think 5 mil is better than the 9/16" webbing?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 10:49:21 am by mhudon »

Offline mhudon

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2011, 11:59:30 am »
The Metolius site rates their 5 mil at 5.1 kN and Bluewater calls their 9/16 webbing tensile strength 2200 lbf.


Can anyone straighten out that apples to oranges comparison?

Offline *Mucci*

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2011, 12:06:06 pm »
I changed the style in which I climb, thus aborted the 2 adj daisys.

Mike- I rated that fall to one I foolishly took recently, which was way less steep and 1/2 the distance.   I have concluded I would be a hobbit afterward :0

Didn't Kristoffer take a really bad one on surgeon generals 1st or 2nd pitch?  

I also think the 5 mm perlon + a sheath of 9/16ths over it, is the best solution for a tie in.

Offline Mike.

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2011, 12:22:36 pm »
Got ya, Mucci. Thanks for splainin.

Not sure about the Zephyr...he's dodged many bullets.


Mark: 5Kn=1124 lbf. Webbing FTW. I wouldn't mind 7-8mm as Mucci suggests. Guessing 8mm is twice as strong as 5mm.

http://www.unitconversion.org/force/kilonewtons-to-pound-forces-conversion.html
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Offline slabbyd

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2011, 01:42:16 pm »
Mark, in regards to Metolius adjustable daisies, I've been told that the 300 lb strength rating is based on misuse of the product.  In that this would be the strength of the daisy if someone clipped a biner into only the black webbing handloop and not the actual biner loop.  This makes sense both looking at it as well as in regards to Metolius' empasis on safety.  You might be able to confirm this?

On clean trade routes I use a single Metolius adjustable and then a short 3'? tether of 7mm cord (I used Bluewater dynamic prusik cord).  The cord comes into play only as a backup at anchors and for connecting to my lower jumar.  On hard aid or routes with multiple hook moves in a row I resort back to a second "real" daisy.

Now this might not apply to doing VIs but has worked well for me lately (soloing IVs and Vs in a day with a single rope and carrying a pack rather than hauling). 
1) When I get to the anchor I tether off
2) then pull some slack through my SP and tie the rope off short below the SP. 
3) Next I put myself on rappel with a Grigri. 
4) Then I pull up the rest of the rope and tie off the end to the anchor. 
5) Take your SP off your harness and clip into the anchor. 
6) Set up like this it's very quick and easy to pull all the slack through your SP such that it's ready for your next lead (I never undo the rope from the SP which is a PITA).   

Now the point relative to your question...

7) when I jug back to the anchor the very first thing I do is grab the SP and clip it back to my harness.
8) On belay!

I could see this getting the way while hauling though.....

Offline Garbonzo

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2011, 02:23:33 pm »
Sweet! I have a spool of 5 mil I bought from Metolius before Grape Race/Tribal Rite that I still have a bunch of.

Would you think 5 mil is better than the 9/16" webbing?

I can't say, I've hand tied one up and never used it.  I've run into one partner who's daisy was out of 5mm.  I think I first ran across the description in an old Freedom of the Hills or similar.

YMMV.

Offline mhudon

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2011, 02:26:32 pm »
Given the strength of the webbing is 2200, better than the 5 mil's 1124, I'm going with tied up daisies of webbing.

Thanks for all the input.

Offline Chad

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2011, 01:49:28 pm »
Sounds like you are sorted Mark.

Wild Things used to make a daisy where each loop was full strength. Here's a link to a photo from a supertopo thread. I think it would be sweet to have a sewn one of these in 11/16 nylon.

http://www.supertopo.com/photos/3/37/155253_18447_L.jpg

John Middendorf mentioned tying daisies out of 5mm cord in Climbing Big Walls. Not sure if it was the Stassman ed. or The Middendorf/Long ed., or both.

I thought about using those Chain Reactors/PAS anchor slings, but they are too short for me. Plus if you are using a fifi hook anywhere on the chain, it is annoying that every other link faces the wrong way.

At the moment I am still using conventional daisys (FISH, Metolius or BD). How do they come up with such a weak rating for daisy loops, anyhow. I thought each individual bar tack is pretty strong, and if you have three of them, they should be hard to break in practice.

EDIT: The weird thing about the Wild Things daisy chain in the photo - I think I would like it better if the girth-hitch part was on the other end.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 01:58:44 pm by Chad »

Offline mhudon

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2011, 04:23:47 pm »
I wonder about 9/16 webbing with 5 mil threaded through it? It would certainly be strong enough but would it be elastic enough to not kill you?

Offline mhudon

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2011, 04:56:55 pm »
Quote
The weird thing about the Wild Things daisy chain in the photo - I think I would like it better if the girth-hitch part was on the other end.

You would end up with the same thing, wouldn't you? The loops would just pull the other way, awkwardly on the stitching, imho.

Offline Chad

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2011, 06:57:24 pm »
Pretty much agreed, Mark. I would want the girth hitch and the bar tack join reversed from what is in the picture, but with the daisy loops in the obviously stronger orientation.

I don't see much value in putting the 5mm inside the 9/16 unless it does a really great job of holding the loops open. Even then, the 9/16 should be plenty strong. The only question would be do you tie the overhands with a little extra bias/slack, so it is easier to fit a biner in. Or do you tie it more symmetrically.

I have put 5mm kevlar inside 9/16 for a Gunks tie-off for Friends, as well as threaded doubled mammut or wildcountry 60cm slings inside of 1" tubular webbing. (Better than 2 biners in a bolt) IMO.

Offline johnmac

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2011, 08:38:20 pm »
My setup is a little different.

I don't use daisies on aiders until it gets hard or overhanging. I use one pair of Yates ladders. When I do need a daisy I use an adjustable fifi made by Kong on a piece of 5mm cord.

On my jugs I have one Yates adjustable for the top jug and a piece of 5mm cord with some strategically placed loops for the lower one. I also use this piece of cord as a temp daisy if needed for my ladders and at anchors. I use the rope as a backup most of the time to tie myself into the anchors. I often using the grigri and a backup knot incase I get some slack into the system.

I had some daisy chain falls BITD and just don't want to go through that again, so I would rather risk of the chance of dropping an aider. I carry a spare just in case, but I haven't dropped one in a very long time. Until you really have a daisy chain fall it's hard to think how hard they are, but a short fall of 3 or 4 feet can really knock the wind out of you.

Offline Chad

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2011, 08:57:42 pm »
John,

Just curious - isn't the 5mm perlon a bit thin for the KONG adjustable fifi. I think they recommend 7mm. I've been using 6mm Sterling to good effect. Interested in trying Mammut 7mm which seems equivalent to 6mm in some other brands. I'd just be concerned about the two strands passing each other if subjected to high forces while top-stepping. However, there does seem to be a lot of variation among brands. For example the Bluewater accessory cord seems stiffer than most. Or are you using a 5.5mm tech cord or something like that. (I remember Pete Z. saying something about throwing a slipknot or something in there to prevent the adjustable fifi cord from releasing without warning.)

Offline offset

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2011, 09:00:34 pm »
having a hand-tied daisy can also add some shock absorption....  well.. once at least.

theory: if you tie a knott or two in a perlon daisy and fall on it - as it cinches up it will be a softer fall than w/o a knot.    

Offline mhudon

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2011, 10:15:43 pm »
A little bit of thread drift here, if I may.

A couple of you have mentioned using different attachments to your upper and lower jug. Why?

My upper jug comes off the rope to pass a piece as often as the lower one comes off on a traverse. At random times, I'm totally hanging on one jug or the other. What's the difference? I may even switch my lower jug to be my top jug if the pitch changes direction and leans the other way (ZM was all over the place in this regard) (and yes, I have a back up knot to the rope regardless of climbing solo or not).


You'll be doing back flips all day with 5 mil threaded through your Kong Fiffi! It happens to me occasionally with 6 mil and I'm a light guy!
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 09:13:11 am by mhudon »

Offline johnmac

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2011, 12:05:43 pm »
It might be 5.5 or 6mm for the fifi cord. It works well and doesn't slip.


Offline Baltoro

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2011, 01:17:45 pm »
Mark I thought the same thing regarding different systems for upper and lower jugs. I treat them as more or less interchangeable. I prefer the left one on top but often find myself in situations that the right one ends up above.
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Offline tolman_paul

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2011, 09:39:09 am »
I used to always hang each of my sets of aiders off of a daisy, which varied over the years from hand tied 5mm perlon, 1/2" webbing, and commercially sewn daisies.  This subject as well as various PAS threads got me to thinking and I went fumbling through my gear last night.  I made a purcell prussik out of 5m of 7mm perlon, and found for me it's just the right lenght if I tie it into my belay loop, and have the two loops coming out of the prussik facing away from me.  I haven't aided with the setup yet, but it seems like it might be just the right blend of tethering your aiders, sufficiently strong material, and the prussik providing a some dynamic give.


Offline Mike.

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2011, 03:49:59 pm »

A couple of you have mentioned using different attachments to your upper and lower jug. Why?



The upper jug needs a shorter daisy than what I would lead with, so it needs to be able to be clipped short. Two different adjustments allows for longer throw for low angle and shorter for steeper.
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Offline mhudon

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Re: Daisy Chains and Tethers
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2011, 04:43:09 pm »
Oh, I just use the same daisy and clip it in where it feels right.