Author Topic: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling  (Read 4886 times)

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Offline mhudon

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Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« on: March 12, 2012, 11:02:47 am »
So, the misery has struck and the bag is stuck. You're getting ready to go down and you notice the toothed cam that will be soon holding you and the bags while you flip-flop around down there trying to get them un-stuck.

Are you concerned about that?

How do you safety that?

Your thoughts?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 11:06:37 am by mhudon »

Offline Mike.

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2012, 11:10:16 am »
Why are you committed to a toothed cam? Why not rap the lead line from a secure part of the anchor?

Klemheist, prusik, etc., below the toothed cam, tensioned for downward pull backs up the scariness.

I'm not bothered by committing to a toothed cam if there is no practical alternative. Each of my ascenders has one...
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 11:18:31 am by Mike. »
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Offline mhudon

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2012, 11:19:33 am »
Sure, you're secured by the lead rope, the rope you rapped down on, but you're going to have to be fully on the haul line, pulling on the far end hauler at some point. If something weird happened and the toothed cam cut the rope, you would be secured on the lead line but you would now have the full weight of the haul bag hanging from your belay loop.

Offline Mike.

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2012, 11:50:48 am »
Got ya.

I'd say NBD since the bag's connection to you will be taught and your primary connection dynamic. Another good reason to have a pocket knife on you...?

Once the rope-grabbing knot is in place below the hauler it's a non-issue. Tensioning that backup will be a simple reverse haul since it doesn't matter if your bag drops down a few inches or a foot.

Extending the concern for the haul bag ending up on you somehow: A similar disaster could happen even without far end hauling, if the hauler, its connections or that one anchor point fails. I often slap a 'draw on the haul line near the hauler, connected to an alternate part of the anchor, especially if the haul is one-bolt-centric.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 12:04:26 pm by Mike. »
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Offline mhudon

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2012, 12:03:11 pm »
I'm presenting more of a mental challenge than anything else, Mike.

People always say "yeah, just clip this to that and you're good to go" but in real life "clipping this to that" can be a lot more complicated than that and sometimes impossible.

Your solution of the Klemhiest is perfect but I want people to go through every step of the process of setting it up and taking it apart. How exactly to you get it tightly on the rope and then how do you get it off?

Offline Mike.

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2012, 12:06:59 pm »
How exactly to you get it tightly on the rope and then how do you get it off?

You put it on loosely and reverse the haul until it's taught. Then you haul a few inches and it's loose again so it can be easily removed.

Am I over-simplifying this?
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Offline mhudon

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2012, 12:19:23 pm »
Nope, perfect.

I just want people to think about it in concrete rather abstract terms.

On the South Seas last fall I had a plan to lower Max down and then have him rap further to the ground. I thought I had it figured out how I was going to get past the knot and down. When my turn came to rap I went down only to realize that I hadn't set myself up to be able to take weight of the rope to remove my Gri Gri. Luckily I could barely touch the slab and got myself swinging and eventually was able to run up the slab to a tiny ledge and take my weight off the rope and pass the knot. If I hadnt been able to touch the slab I would have totally clusterized myself!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 12:36:38 pm by mhudon »

Offline cobbledik

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2012, 01:26:25 pm »
nothing to add but thank you for the exercise.
Sometimes the difference between a layman and a journeyman is simply what he is allowed to believe himself to be.

Offline Mike.

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2012, 01:40:08 pm »
I think there's definite value in these kinds of discussions. Potential what-ifs are so great in numbers...you just don't know where/when the next unexpected problem-solve will be needed. I've had one "great idea" or another go bad before my eyes?it's frustrating, but on the other hand lets me exercise my bean to recover.
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Offline Baltoro

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2012, 01:46:35 pm »
Mark
That's part of what I like about the Kong Block-Roll dealio; you can fix the rope above the cam, unweight the cam and its evil teeth are no longer in the system. The trick is getting the weight off the teeth to release it. I'm a big dude and can counter the weight of the bags ok to release so no mini-haul is need for me. Assuming you have some up and down range and that the bags aren't completely stuck I would go through this process:

Clip my gri-gri into the haul line above the Kong- the visual would be the line going up from the stuck bags, through the cam, up and over the pulley and then down to my gri-gri.
I would cinch the gr-gri tight enough to take the weigh of the bags onto me and then release the cam on the Kong.
Then once the bags are weighted by me I would put a kliemheist on the rope below the pulley on the bag side. I'd lower out on the gri-gr until the kliemheist took the load. Ideally this would be a little ways below the cam and pulley on the Kong as its easier to rig it up again later as I may only be far-end hauling for a few feet.
I'd finish the process by putting a back-up knot on the haulline above the kliemheist.
Then I'd be rapping on my lead line with the haul line held by the friction knot with a back-up knot. The toothed cam is out of the picture until I want it to be in again.
After rapping down, doing the far-end hauling and then jugging back up I could slip the haulline rope back into the Kong, close the cam, undo the back-up knot, run the haul line over the pulley again, apply my ascender/ladder to the non-pig side and take up some tension.
That will release the load off the kliemheist and I can remove that from the pig side of the haulline and start hauling again only to have to repeat the whole process again in a few minutes on this pitch or best case scenario on the next pitch.

I think I forgot everything. Oh and next time I'd make sure to solo something steeper where the bags won't get hung up so often.

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Offline mhudon

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2012, 01:57:29 pm »
That all sounds good. With my 2:1 system I'd do essentially the same thing.

Offline johnmac

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2012, 08:51:17 pm »
I'm trying to figure it out too. I've messed with the far end system a bunch of times and I've always rapped down on the lead line and then jugged up that line while raising the bags using the far end system. 

In this scenario I'm guessing the lead rope isn't available?

Offline mhudon

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2012, 08:53:37 pm »
No, the lead rope is available but your big concern is the cam cutting the haul line and you ending up pinched between the haul bags dangling from your waist and your tie in to the lead line you rapped on.

Offline johnmac

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2012, 07:09:20 am »
Oh, I got you now!

It has never really concerned me to this point, but I guess it all depends on how much weight and force that is going to apply. 10 pitches for me is a long route so I don't generally deal with a lot of the issues you do on El Cap. Most my stuff is two to four days.

Offline passthepitonspete

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2012, 09:01:51 pm »
Mark writes,

"but you're going to have to be fully on the haul line, pulling on the far end hauler at some point. If something weird happened and the toothed cam cut the rope, you would be secured on the lead line but you would now have the full weight of the haul bag hanging from your belay loop."

Pete asks,

"What in the fuck are you talking about?!"  This makes no sense to me.  I don't get it.  

Are you doing something terribly wrong here? 

1) Rap lead rope til beside stuck pigs

2) Hang there on the lead rope on your Grigri

3) Take one of your jugs and put it on the weighted haul line above the pig

4) Clip a carabiner and pulley to the jug

5) Pass the free end of the haul line that comes out of the inverted hauling device on the top of the pigs through the pulley to form a Zed

6) Take your other jug, put it on the free end of the haul line, and push down with one leg [2:1] while simultaneously pulling up on the pig [3:1]

7) The pig slides up the haul line until it is too high, and you have to repeat the cycle

8) Take your second jug, clip it to the weighted lead rope above you, and pass the free end of the lead rope coming out of the Grigri through a carabiner and pulley on your second jug.  Use the 2:1 Body Hoist to ascend the lead rope.  You should use your Personal Pleasure Pulley = DMM Revolver for this purpose

9) Slide your other ascender up the weighted haul line, and repeat.

WTF are you talking about having the pig on your harness?  Toothed cams cutting ropes?  Dude, what are you doing WRONG???? 

I guess when you solo'd El Cap, you didn't have to do any Far End Hauling, eh?   ;)


Or am I the dumbass here, and missing something obvious?  But Mark's question above makes zero sense to me. 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 09:08:25 pm by passthepitonspete »
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Offline mhudon

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2012, 07:51:35 am »
You're reading it, Pete, but you're envisioning it incorrectly. It's not really about the actually far end hauling at all.

Offline Baltoro

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2012, 01:36:44 pm »
Pete- I think Mark might be refering to Step 6 in your process where you clip a jug to the haul line to power the Far End setup. Theoretically if that jug was still connected to you via a daisy or anything really and the haul line somehow got the chop from the toothed cam above that the bag would then plummet until your connection to the jug caught it, in which case it would probably hurt and/or break things.

Maybe I'm wrong but that's where I think Mark is going.
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Offline del cross

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2012, 04:16:56 pm »
It's not even clear that the rope would catch on the jumar because of the direction it is oriented on the rope. It might just zip on through. Or maybe a loop would eventually whip around and snarl on you somehow? That sounds potentially painful.

But what's the worry really? You're hauling the whole wall with the bag attached to the haul line via a small toothed cam. You can't be thinking that it's that big of a deal or else you'd be using a Klemheist at the bag to unweight the mini-trax teeth as well.

Offline passthepitonspete

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2012, 05:04:57 pm »
Geez, Mark - your comment explained nothing to me at all.  I still don't understand what you are talking about.

ASSUMING that you are talking about Step 6 as Baltoro points out, you have nothing to worry about. You are right there tending your pigs, there is no way on God's green earth the haul line can get damaged. 

Um, what ARE you talking about?!
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Offline mhudon

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2012, 05:10:36 pm »
It's pretty simple.

ARE YOU WORRIED THAT THE TOOTHED CAM WILL CUT THE ROPE WHILE YOU ARE DOWN THERE DICKING WITH THE BAGS?

Offline cobbledik

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2012, 09:34:31 pm »
Edit: damnit, it's been a while and I forgot that Baltoro already presented this idea- never mind, keep walking, nothing to see here)

Since far end hauling (as far as I understand because I havnt actually done it yet) all happens at the bag AND you've got your 2:1 up top, can you avoid the issue by fixing the hauline to a hard knot on the anchor, disengage the teeth and then head down to dixk around with the bag? Once you're back up, it's easy to unweight the knot, pop the teeth back on and haul away? (exactly like you do when you rap down the haul line at the beginning of heading down to clean the pitch?)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 04:23:32 pm by cobbledik »
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Offline lambone

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2012, 11:53:50 am »
It's pretty simple.

ARE YOU WORRIED THAT THE TOOTHED CAM WILL CUT THE ROPE WHILE YOU ARE DOWN THERE DICKING WITH THE BAGS?

I don't see why it'd be any more likely to cut the rope then a hauler up at the main anchor...?

Offline mhudon

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2012, 12:15:08 pm »
it's the upper rope grab that i'm talking about

Offline A5scott

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2012, 02:58:24 pm »
whose on first?
Scott

Offline cobbledik

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2012, 04:24:25 pm »
Who is.

- - -
But seriously, this may be the best unintentional troll I've seen.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 04:27:24 pm by cobbledik »
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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2012, 10:26:38 pm »
Cobbledik, you win on comedic timing, but seriously, if you're down there, what you left at the anchor IS of major concern to you, right?
I can see & have done the isolate on that line. At the time, it seemed a sensible back up. It still seems sensible.
It's the backup one doesn't do that kills.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 10:30:50 pm by skully »

Offline mhudon

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2012, 10:20:38 am »
Sticking with my New Years resolution of "post no snark" I am unable to reply to the latest posts. ;-)

Offline Baltoro

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2012, 11:43:56 am »
Is seems like an appropriate time to include the requisite "yer gunna die" comment.

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Offline Mike.

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2012, 11:45:36 am »
The biggest takeaway from this discussion IMO is the prudence of building solid, redundant, non-extending anchors, and of using a dynamic haul line. Most if not all haul line damage from a hauler that comes to mind was precipitated by a short "fall." Mark, I like your clean rope-only anchors, but sticking with that ethos eliminates anchor rigging options. I can understand why you make a practice of hauling off one bolt. To my mind that lack of immediate redundancy is the elusive evil in the scenarios we're discussing.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 11:48:46 am by Mike. »
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Offline Baltoro

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Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2012, 12:25:53 pm »
So side discussion here but related- Are camming grabs such as gri-gris and shunts better for a rope than toothed devices? I realize the answer initially seems obvious for a dynamic grab such as a fall but what about long term holding?

The other thread showing haul bag attachment options shows Mark attaching the pig to the line with a Mini-trax which affords many options. What if you replaced that with a gri-gri? Would that bend in the rope constantly pinching do any damage longterm to the rope? Would a Pro-trax or Mini-trax or Kong type device be better if it incorporated a more gentle camming grab rather than a toothed grab? Is that the dream device? Jugs and compound pullies that have no teeth? Hmm... It would eliminate some concerns over short falls onto your jugs, rapping from a toothed device and more I'm sure. Too much friction? How would the rope wear longterm? Hmm...

Thoughts?
Sometimes I succeed. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes I am too lazy to do either.
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