Author Topic: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling  (Read 4879 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cobbledik

  • A4+ Dreamer
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
    • View Profile
    • Fail Falling
Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2012, 12:40:55 pm »
the cinch comes to mind as additional (lighter and lower haul-line mm ability than grirgi) non-teethed device that can work in the like the grigri in the place of the minitrax/microtrax. I'd imagine the friction would negate some of the benefit.

Sometimes the difference between a layman and a journeyman is simply what he is allowed to believe himself to be.

Offline Baltoro

  • A3+ Copper Bender
  • *****
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2012, 12:55:07 pm »
I'd certainly agree that a gri-gri or cinch would not be an ideal replacement but what it a device was engineered with minimal friction in mind with no teeth but for a hauling or jugging application?
Sometimes I succeed. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes I am too lazy to do either.
M. Twight

Offline cobbledik

  • A4+ Dreamer
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
    • View Profile
    • Fail Falling
Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2012, 01:54:30 pm »
Don't most non-teethed progress capture devices work either off of a spring or a work-against-pull-of-force-or-gravity, thus, by their very design introduce fiction into the system?

What would a non-toothy design look like without those two friction-based styles of progress capture? 
Sometimes the difference between a layman and a journeyman is simply what he is allowed to believe himself to be.

Offline Baltoro

  • A3+ Copper Bender
  • *****
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2012, 02:26:54 pm »
That's the trick I guess is getting the grab to grab without causing a massive amount of friction. I would imagine there's a certain amount of friction in toothed devices as well as the teeth are under spring tension, obviously not to the extent that a rope runs through a gri-gri type friction but there is some.

Anybody ever tried hauling with a silent partner? I've never used one personally for anything but theoretically it might work, eliminate teeth from the equation and run with minimal friction.
Sometimes I succeed. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes I am too lazy to do either.
M. Twight

Offline mhudon

  • A4+ Dreamer
  • *****
  • Posts: 785
    • View Profile
Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2012, 02:45:29 pm »
Hmmm... the Silent Partner would definitely not work.

I'm sure the teeth damage the rope and begin the tearing of it, but wouldn't a Gri-gri be able to "pinch off" the rope if enough force were applied to it? Actually, I think even Petzl states that it will start slipping at a certain point.

The spring is not the issue with a rope grab. The cam is designed to push the rope into the opposite slot more so by the downward weight on it than the spring force. The more weight, the more force, and on and on. The teeth don't let the rope slip so it eventually breaks (I'm thinking of the guy jumaring the static rope along with the haul bag accident in Zion a few years ago).

Offline Baltoro

  • A3+ Copper Bender
  • *****
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2012, 03:09:00 pm »
What was the Zion accident? Guy jugging a haul line with the haul bags weigting it from below?

I guess a Silent Partner would grab when pulled on hard from the "wrong" side.

I can't imagine the pinching action of the gri-gri would be good for a rope longterm but if you were hauling or jugging and it wasn't pinching in the same spot for an extended period of time I would imagine the rope would recover. In practice it wouldn't ever pinch in the same spot for more than a few minutes, if not seconds but I'm sure it would need to pinch without damaging for hours and hours if not days and days to be certifiable. I get that the spring on a toothed device is just to get the teeth to bite and that's where the teeth come in to do the dirty work. I'm just saying there's some level of friction there, however minimal.

I don't see any current device that would do the trick, it would just be interesting to see what the companies could come up with if building a hauler/jugging tool without teeth was the task.
Sometimes I succeed. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes I am too lazy to do either.
M. Twight

Offline SLareau

  • A1 fiend
  • **
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2012, 03:39:23 pm »
Would a Petzl ID fit the bill for what you are thinking of?  You definitely could use one instead of a toothed progress capture pulley at the top of the system. You probably wouldn't want to haul 1:1 through a ID though. The radius of bending/pinching in an ID would be more favorable than a grirgri.  At least lowering out really jammed bags would be easier than it would be with a mini-trax.

http://www.petzl.com/en/pro/self-braking-descenders-0/id-l

Offline Baltoro

  • A3+ Copper Bender
  • *****
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2012, 03:49:55 pm »
I've used an ID for commerical rope work and while ideal for a gri-gri and then some application I don't think it's the ticket.

I guess I should back this conversation up and say that I have a Kong with teeth I haul through. I have a Mini-trax I use like Mark does. I jug like the rest of us (without more grunting though) so I'm no stranger to teeth. It's purely a theoretical discussion for me as I think the tools that are out there already do a pretty good job.

Sometimes I succeed. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes I am too lazy to do either.
M. Twight

Offline mhudon

  • A4+ Dreamer
  • *****
  • Posts: 785
    • View Profile
Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2012, 04:00:34 pm »
The Zion accident was where a guy was jugging a static line with the haul bag already hanging from it and Petzl Pro-Traxion (that was not safetied properly) all of a sudden let 10 or 15 feet of rope slip through it. The climber and haul bag "fell" the 10 or 15 feet, the static line did not provide any dynamic catch, the climber's jugs pinched the rope off and he fell to his death.

The whole premise for me starting this thread was that we are putting ourselves in a similar situation when we rap down to Far End Haul a bag. Sure, there are lots of things that are not similar but still, you're flopping around on the end of a static rope with you and the haul bags weight on it, secured by a toothed cam up at the top anchor.

It's not really something that I'm really concerned about but it was just something I wanted to make sure everyone was thinking about. The easiest solution is to put a couple of Klemhiest knots below the toothed cam.

Purely theoretical, 98% Yes, 2% No.

Offline Baltoro

  • A3+ Copper Bender
  • *****
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2012, 04:13:04 pm »
That to me is one of the biggest appeals to a Kong style setup or the old pulley and jug method; the ability to take the teeth out of the equation easily when so desired is nice.

Scary with the Zion thing. It seems even jugging a weighted haul line is somewhat taboo or at least you don't hear a lot of people doing it or admitting to doing it. It would make sense in a team of three scenario where A leads, B lowers C and the bags out, C jugs and then hauls while A shortfixes and B cleans. That requires C having the balls/ovaries to ride the bags out and then jug with them below him/her. Probably no big deal on an overnight but for a longer wall with supplies for three that would be a bit unnerving to say the least. I'd throw a Shunt on there as a moveable back-up since no knots could be tied and no gri-gri added for security.

If you removed the teeth from the system above would you jug on the haul line with the bags hanging below you? I guess essentially you're doing this a bit in Far-End hauling, which prompted the thread but it somehow seems different to do this on every pitch in the scenario above.
Sometimes I succeed. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes I am too lazy to do either.
M. Twight

Offline cobbledik

  • A4+ Dreamer
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
    • View Profile
    • Fail Falling
Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2012, 06:15:32 pm »
Quote
It seems even jugging a weighted haul line is somewhat taboo or at least you don't hear a lot of people doing it or admitting to doing it

Hmmmm, this is what I did when I ascended after fixing to Ahwanee on Leaning Tower.

Haul rope fixed to the anchors at the top of pitch 2. Lead line fixed to Ahwanee above that. I lowered out on the haul line along with the bag with a 20m bit of 8mm utility line. Once out in space, jugged up to anchor.

Rope was tied directly to the anchor, not in the haul device because I use the 2:1 hauling ratchet to attach the toothed minitrax to the haul line once I'm at the anchor. This is how I always have it set up normally, placing the toothed cam/pulley on the only once I'm hauling. If I have to go down to fix shit, just hard tie a knot to the anchor and disengage the teeth on the cam.

I use a Petzl micender as my backup when I jug a weighted line, no teeth, made to slip a bit for a "dynamic" catch if needed - irrelevant if the ascenders are still attached to the line, but I think of the backup as for my ascenders coming off the line, not something happening up top. I like the microcender more than the shunt because of the huge difference in weight. Every time I hold the shunt in my hand, I figure out ways to justify not putting such a brick into my bag.
Sometimes the difference between a layman and a journeyman is simply what he is allowed to believe himself to be.

Offline mhudon

  • A4+ Dreamer
  • *****
  • Posts: 785
    • View Profile
Re: Securing the rope while Far End Hauling
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2012, 06:24:43 pm »
I don't see any problem to ascending a correctly anchored, weighted line. I also attach my 2:1 the same way cobbledik does.