Author Topic: Replacing old rivets  (Read 3827 times)

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Offline Beautiful_Corn

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Replacing old rivets
« on: July 10, 2013, 09:02:57 pm »



These rivets (or are they old bolts without hangers?) are on a forgotten aid route at my closest aid crag.  Nobody seems to know anything about the route, not even the local hardman who put up several other aid routes on the wall over the past fifteen years.  I want to test my mettle on this route but these rivets look old and sketchy.  How would I go about replacing them?

Thanks guys,
Taylor

Offline mhudon

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2013, 09:33:35 pm »
I would guess the top one is a bolt and give that, probably the rest are also. Get a tuning fork or maybe even  a crow bar and pry them out.

Offline *Mucci*

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2013, 10:25:54 pm »
If you can thread a nut on, do so and use a tuning fork.  If you can't, beat the stud over so you can get some leverage under the threaded stock, maybe use a couple pins in combo with a tuning fork, or larger wunder bar/crow bar with a 3/8" groove cut in the blade end.

They look like splitshafts, with a threaded end, 1.5" would be my guess.  Though the one without the nut is possibly a 2" which negates the splitshaft theory. They were both indeed bolts and probably utilized a hanger at some point. That type of bolt on an aid route means they wanted more protection than a popular rivet of the time such as a Z-mack, machine head or the dreaded dowel.

I would replace with a 5/16th" button head splitshaft 1"-1.5" long, (I have some I could send you). This will require you to drill out the original hole, provided you extracted the bolt.

If you bugger the pull job, then break off the end flush with the wall, use a punch and beat the stud into the hole and really paste it like a copperhead.  Then patch with some gravel and colored silicone, or liquid nails with dirt embeded. 

Now comes the question, protection or progression?  You decide by what type of bolt or rivet you choose to place.  Drill a new hole, paying attention to the way the first bolt was placed, and from where you can clip it.  Sink it.

I would replace those with a 5/16" splitshaft, if I could use the hole.  If I had to drill a new one, I would place a 1/4" splitshaft button head with hanger.  It would ensure you could remove it later on, and re-use the hole for a proper bolt.






Offline Erik Sloan

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2013, 08:32:18 am »
Good on ya Corn.

The top pic looks like the bolt has seen some action as the rock below the bolt has deteriorated. The way bolts most commonly fail is after repeated loading the rock below the bolt starts to break, eventually causing the bolt to bend down and out of the hole, and then break. So I wouldn't recommend you re-use that hole.

Be careful on those aid climbs close to the ground.

cheers,
erik
yosemitebigwall.com

Offline Chad

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2013, 09:01:00 am »
I don't know if this technique is still valid, since the bolts have improved, and the 5-piece stainless is supposed to be where it's at (I think). When Connecticut climbers set about to replace the 1/4" protection bolts (all placed on lead), the same hole was used because the 1/4" bolts were drilled over by a 3/8" self-driving bolt with a hollow-tube in the center, saw teeth up front and a metal "cork-like" plug. No doubt these were a big improvement and it seemed like an elegant solution at the time. Not sure how these 3/8" bolts are regarded today. Would it be possible to use these bolts to drill over the bolt and rivet and then put in a more modern bolt? I mean bolt for bolt, rivet for rivet.
 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 10:20:20 am by Chad »

Offline *Mucci*

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2013, 11:12:11 am »
Erik,

Why would you not use that hole if you were drilling it out to a larger diameter?

I see no reason, provided the bolt comes out that that placement could not be used again.

Worst case, you drill it out to 3/8ths which would negate all issues pertaining to deterioration.

Of course, if it all goes fubar, drill a nice new hole. 

Minimizing new holes is the name of the game for replacement.  That's why it is a huge undertaking to retrofit a route.

Sounds like there is ample time to try and do the best job possible, as it is so close to the ground.




Offline Erik Sloan

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2013, 01:26:31 pm »
The cratering at the bottom of the hole in the top pic is substantial. If the FA had used a hanger that might have been lessened, but it is what it is. It is common to flatten the area around the hole by breaking rock on the top so that a bolt hanger sits flush, which would work fine here if you drilled it out to 3/8". Enlargening holes only one size, say from 1/4 to 5/16 can be tough because the bit tends to bind. In this case with cratering already happening at the hole I would image that trying to get a good 5/16 hole would be difficult. 

No doubt in a perfect world you could re-use every hole. That way the distance between placements stays the say,ect.

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2013, 02:37:58 pm »
what size is the bolt with the washer in the first pic. There is only one perspective so I can't accurately tell whether the cratering that Nanook is concerned for is the size of a 1/4" nut or a 3/8" nut. The later being a substantial crater. The former maybe not a substantial crater to drill and re-use the hole. Is there another pic of it?


btw, talk about a technical discussion. *like*

Offline Beautiful_Corn

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2013, 03:58:38 pm »
Mungeclimber, those are the only photos I took but I could get more next week if it would help.  I am fairly sure they are 1/4 inch.  This might help also: the diameter of the bolts, appearance of the threads, nut, etc. looks exactly like the (now mostly chopped) bolts Tom Evans placed at Carderock in the late 1960s back before bolting was banned there.  These photos come from Harpers Ferry, WV which is not far from Washington D.C.

Chris Sharma does the FFA on Evans' Bolt Ladder.


Anyone sell tuning forks?  I definitely don't have the equipment to make one.

Offline *Mucci*

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2013, 04:21:25 pm »
Dude, that is some cool stone, I have family near there.

I PM'd you on replacement gear

Offline Erik Sloan

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2013, 08:01:38 am »
Since many of you are probably only thinking about having to replace a bolt or rivet one day, I feel like I should say that Josh is right that you always want to try and re-use the hole, especially on aid climbs. When free climbing, if a bolt is moved a few inches to the left or right it usually doesn't make that much difference; but on aid, where the reach between placements is affected, making a placement 3 inches further might be out of reach for some folks.

But if the hole is shot it's shot. In Yosemite they are usually shot as the bolts were drilled hastily, at weird angles, or they just wore a lot from use.

A good rule might be that if there is climbing above the bolt, as opposed to another bolt in a bolt ladder, then that bolt should have a hanger. That way any loading that the bolt received from falls would be less likely to result in cratering and eventual hole/bolt blowout.

Let us know how it goes Corn

Offline Erik Sloan

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2013, 05:50:35 pm »
Did you try anything Taylor?

Offline Skully

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2013, 11:06:35 am »
Hey, BCorn, you can make a couple tuning forks yourself if you have a couple extra arrows lying around. Just cut a slot down the middle.
Easy peasy.

Offline mhudon

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2013, 10:03:13 pm »
How would you do it, Skully? Use a hack saw and cut down each side of the future notch? Do you think a carburundum (sic?) blade on a circular saw would do it?

Offline Skully

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Offline mhudon

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2013, 08:55:35 am »
Oh,  I thought you had some direct experience, had actually made some.

Offline Skully

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2013, 10:10:09 am »
Actually, I have. It's not rocket science.
As I won't be needled by Mr. Snippy here, I'll be going now.
You see my instinct was correct, Munge.

Offline mhudon

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2013, 10:54:31 am »
??
I'm searching for instruction, Skully.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 10:59:32 am by mhudon »

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2013, 01:43:44 pm »
Actually, I have. It's not rocket science.
As I won't be needled by Mr. Snippy here, I'll be going now.
You see my instinct was correct, Munge.

I think Mark is genuinely interested in the best way to do it.


Since the LAs aren't tempered, you don't have to water cool while cutting, yes? 
I'm interested in any details anyone has.

I've never cut these either.

Theron hooked me up on my two forks. Maybe we can get him to chime in too.


The real trick, is putting a protective sheath around the leash cabling at the eye of the LA so that you don't bash the cable, and prematurely end the life of the leash.



Offline mhudon

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2013, 02:35:43 pm »
I was thinking that I'd somehow try to fit the blade Skully recommended onto my Skil saw and then make some sort of sliding bed I could attach the pin to, to safely feed it into the blade.
When I had my local metalworks shop make a few, they commented that the metal was quite hard and that even at one point he could cut no further.
Skully seemed confident and I was just wanting to know his technique.

Offline *Mucci*

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2013, 10:58:47 am »
Mark, I make mine with a 1/4 thick grinder wheel, or you can use a cutoff wheel on a angle grinder.

Like this one for the handheld angle grinder.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/NORTON-Depressed-Center-Wheel-6A076?Pid=search

I just put the arrow in a vice, and eyeball the slot.

If you wanted to get pro on it, hang a jug with water above your work bench, and use a piece of air hose and valve to regulate the flow for cooling as you grind.

I have always cooled the Pin as I grinded away and have not had a problem with one breaking yet.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 11:03:43 am by *Mucci* »

Offline Aaron McDonald

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Offline Skully

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2013, 09:54:19 pm »
Mark, I'm sorry. I'm more than a little weird right now. Maybe we'll discuss that in another venue.
Seriously, though. Arrows cut well with a good quality steel cutter. There are many options. Head for Ace rather than the Depot.
Or some such. I'd hate to cut one by hand, though...like with a handsaw? That's labor.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 11:43:04 pm by Skully »

Offline mhudon

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2013, 04:28:49 pm »
That's cool, Skully, Thanks. We all get a little weird now and then, believe me!

Offline T Moses

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Re: Replacing old rivets
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2014, 12:15:20 am »
Better late than never?

The ASCA sells tuning forks.  I mill them out for the ASCA using their fixture.  I donate my time because I believe it is a worthy cause and my way to give back to the community.  If you want some milled out contact Greg Barnes at the ASCA.  They have regular tuning forks for super cheap and the money gets used for more ASCA rebolting efforts.  Win/win.

You can make your own if you really want.  Go slow with the grinder and cut a 1/4" slot down the middle.  Keep it cool by dipping in water regularly.  By keeping it cool you preserve the temper of the piton.