Author Topic: Soloing Belay Device Question  (Read 11373 times)

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Offline jeffo

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Soloing Belay Device Question
« on: September 02, 2006, 04:52:18 pm »
Just a quick question for all those soloers (is that a word?)

I use a grigri/backup for soloing but have come to question the manner in which I attache the grigri to my belay device.  I'm worried about degrees of freedom in that I usually just clip the locking biner through both leg loops and belt loop.  The device could get torqued the wrong way.  Do any of you use an extension sling or other method to allow the device more room to move?

Thanks and Cheers (_)?

J

Offline caribouman

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Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2006, 06:26:05 am »
Jeffo, try doing a search/ scroll through the previous posts:  you'll find a whole previous discussion on the topic you're asking about.  Caribouman
when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

Offline Garbonzo

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Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2006, 11:09:28 pm »
I think the general consensus is that:

1.  Yes, the gri-gri and torque and break the biner if god hates you enough that day.

2.  Use a maillon rapide link on your belay loop for as much safety as you're gonna get while soloing.

3.  Soloing is hard and scary.

4.  Gri-Gri's are designed and made by french people, aka freedom land.  Do you trust the french?

Offline routehogger

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Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2006, 12:56:58 am »
I'm currently trying to decide between a wren Solo Aid and a GriGri... any preferences?
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Offline caribouman

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Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2006, 09:56:47 am »
Garbonzo...

  - You have just suggested that someone use a Maillon Rapide link in their soloing system... which is made by the very same French company that makes the Gri-Gri.  C'est vrai, non?

   -Freedom?  You try skiing out of bounds in America.

  -Trust the French?  For what, gear? They're just as scared of cratering as you.  Nobody who uses it makes intentionally bad gear.  Think Black Diamond & Wild Things, both started by Frenchies.

 Now if you're asking about their governments' geo-political interests...  that's for another forum.
when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

Offline buffalohorn

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Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2006, 10:46:03 am »
I prefer the gri-gri to solo with. I've modified it for soloing. See the forum for more of this craziness.

Offline mungeclimber

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Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2006, 12:14:00 pm »
What shape Rapide do you use?

does it matter?


i like the gri gri, but there was a tale of the trigger getting flipped in a fall.

Offline xtrmecat

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2006, 03:08:53 pm »
  I have both a grigri and a soloist and still prefer the soloist. May be that I have used it free climbing for so long that it is what works. Backup, backup, backup, and always backup. Solo kind of adds to the climb in my opinion. Also search supertaco and RC.com for grigri mods. Not done on mine but looks pretty simple. Find what works for you, back it up and go for it. Next thing you know is you can trust it more than a partner, doesn't talk back, but is poor company though.
  Bob

Offline Paulhauser

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2009, 03:30:50 pm »
Sorry for bringing back an old topic, but I did not want to start a new one (and it shows I did some searching :-) )

I'm doing a lot of soloing these times and just got a Grigri for this purpose. So far I have used the clove hitch method.
I have already made the mod on the Grigri (a small hole on the top for keeping upwards), I have a chest harness to attach it for the right position, so in principle everything is set.
The thing which is puzzling me a bit is the way to attach the G to my (sit) harness. If I attach it to the belay loop with a pear locking biner, it is in the right position, no torque. But when I did a test fall at home I have noticed that after the grigri engaged, it nearly knock out of my teeth, because it got quite "high" and also put a lot of stress on the top small loop that connects it to the chest harness to keep it upright. I'm not sure I can explain it 100% as english is not my mother language. 

Now if I connect the biner directly through the leg/belt loop, it keeps the grigri lower, but it will be 90 degrees turned, so it will be parallel with my body. And I'm worry about the torque in an event of a fall.

Anyone experienced such phenomena? Any help?

(maybe I have to keep my harness a bit tighter and to keep it more low, but I dont think it is a solution)

Tomorrow morning I'm off to a local crag to try this all "live". I'm not worried the grigri not catching because it will (or my backup know at least). But I'm worried about it impaling my head from under :-)


Offline hoipolloi

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2009, 06:35:32 pm »
Don't worry about it Paul, if it knocks out your teeth, you can get a platinum grill. Way cooler than normal teeth.




maybe one more like this would suit you better


Offline Rags

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2009, 09:39:17 pm »
Jeffo,
as you can see this question has as many answers as questions. Probably the reason it needs a sticky (munge?), so it doesn't need to get asked. Bottom line, it is a personal preference. Many use the Gri, and some have had  it fail to grab, your choice.
I prefer the solo-aid because it integrates with my chest harness ans avoids the problem your asking about. Gri ain't gonna do that unless you mod it. (I have the beta on gri mods, but if you should do it, do it at your own risk).

The fact that the gri can flop around induces a level of unpredictability to every fall. My Gri got chewed in the attach hole just TRing with it because the biner rotated. Whatever, your choice make damn sure to backup.

Soloaid also allows connection to the harness with cord or tape, which I also prefer.

I have heard some bad mouth the SA because they were to stoopid to learn how to feed rope. practice whatever you do. Lastly, there is the issue of rope running wild once there is some rope weight on the Gri. You may get a whole bunch of slack you really don't want. SA won't do that but it still makes sense to rebelay a few time per pitch. I guess you didn't ask for all that.

Good luck
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 12:14:47 pm by Rags »
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Rick

Offline Paulhauser

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2009, 11:42:35 pm »
Rags, please not that the OP and much of this thread is more than 2 years old. I just resurrected it instead of creating a new one as I have a question related to this.

Hoi, thanks for the info, I might as well need them later today .-)

Offline Rags

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2009, 12:21:46 am »
DUH, now don't I feel stoopid. Well, at least I won't have to say that again in the future....

I usually look at the dates. I'm such a noob sometimes.
Be Safe, Live Long, Climb Hard!

Rick

Offline Paulhauser

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2009, 08:48:02 am »
I did a aid route solo in a local crag today, using a modified Grigri. My worries (that I posted a few posts above) were justified, the grigri flopped around a lot even though it is modified and connected to the chest harness. I was worried that it will cross load the biner, and whether it will be in a right position to catch if I fall.

So grigiri soloist out there what am I doing wrong? Is it the usual clusterf..k or there are ways to improve this?
I bought the grigri to have less hassle with backup knots and clove hitches, but so far I'm not convinced? If one keeps worrying about your equipment on the third sketchy hook move in a row like I did today, it will push up the fear factor quite a bit.

Offline Rags

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2009, 12:22:23 pm »
Quote
I was worried that it will cross load the biner, and whether it will be in a right position to catch if I fall.

This is what happened to mine to damage the side plate hole. I bought a DMM belay master -  http://bit.ly/YBtIo

I didn't like the idea of running the crab through all the loops, nor the idea of it attached to my  belay loop.

The pic shows it pretty much the way I tried it, tape and all. Besides the slop you get, having a device that integrates with my chest harness at full-strength

is a more comforting. I don't want to be left fallling/hangin upside down with a full aid rack on. A hundred bad scenarios.

So one question. "even though it is modified and connected to the chest harness.",  How did you mod the gri to connect? Similar to this?

« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 12:33:50 pm by Rags »
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Rick

Offline Paulhauser

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2009, 01:23:23 pm »
This is how I have done the mod:



And this is how today's setup was.

The locking biner on the right goes to the belay loop, the non locking biner on the left clips to the chest harness. (It is a Yates double gear sling, I clip this biner directly to the cross strap on the chest, not into the ring on it)



I will make a couple of adjustments based on today's experience:

- get the cordlette loop on the grigri much sorter
- and tie it directly into the chest harness, without the non-locking biner
- I will get a bely master for the pear biner, to keep it more in its place
- and will try to use one of these small rubber bands on the grigri and the pear biner to keep the thing on its place:


Offline johnmac

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2009, 03:19:53 pm »
Ditch the pear shape biner and replace with either a steel biner or a Maillon Rapide D.

If you are going to use a gigri you might as well make it as safe as possible. There is one case of a Brit using a DMM Belay Master biner falling on Eagles Way and the biner breaking...
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 11:19:55 am by johnmac »

Offline offset

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2009, 09:54:33 am »
took my first lead solo fall the other day.  about a 20footer when it was all said and done.  i was using a steel locking biner w/ a non-modded grigri.  the fall deployed a screemer till it extended and equalized with another piece.

system worked.  probably would have still worked if using any of the above mentioned theories... but ... either way.  was happy it worked

just a data point.

Offline Paulhauser

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2009, 12:48:26 pm »
Ditch the pear shape biner and replace with either a steel biner or a Maillon Rapide D.

If you are going to use a gigri you might as well make it as safe as possible. There is one case of a Brit using a DMM Belay Master biner falling on Eagles Way and the biner breaking...

Hope he survived (backup knot?)

Yes, I will buy a Maillon for sure.

Offline johnmac

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2009, 02:31:20 pm »
Yes, he was tied to the end of the rope...

Offline Mr.

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2009, 06:34:12 pm »


There is one case of a Brit using a DMM Belay Master biner falling on Eagles Way and the biner breaking...
Yes, he was tied to the end of the rope...

hopefully he fell up higher where it gets steep!

(hoi: hilarious! did you notice they guy in your top photo is crying? .... about the sad state of his facial hair, obviously. he tries soo hard...)


Offline Rags

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2009, 12:07:25 am »
PH, I'm not saying it will happen, just an FYI.

You drilled that little hole pretty damn close to the one rivet that provides the majority of structural integrity for the Gri.

If the Gri ever gets seriously stressed (like in a fall), it is possible that that little hole has compromised the structure enough to facilitate cracking right thru that area.

I'm basing this on my training and experience as an aircraft mechanic that has seen more than my share of stress cracks.

Drilling the hole in a bit farther away, as in the pic I posted, goes along way to avoiding the problem.

Too late, I know. Just keep an eye on it.
Be Safe, Live Long, Climb Hard!

Rick

Offline Paulhauser

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2009, 12:06:36 pm »
I drilled by the pic in Ogden's book. Maybe a bit too close, but too late, as you said. I will not use this grigri for anything else than soloing, that was decided before I modded it. Anyway, thanks for the heads up.

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2009, 05:21:53 pm »
PH, I'm not saying it will happen, just an FYI.

You drilled that little hole pretty damn close to the one rivet that provides the majority of structural integrity for the Gri.

If the Gri ever gets seriously stressed (like in a fall), it is possible that that little hole has compromised the structure enough to facilitate cracking right thru that area.

I'm basing this on my training and experience as an aircraft mechanic that has seen more than my share of stress cracks.

Drilling the hole in a bit farther away, as in the pic I posted, goes along way to avoiding the problem.

Too late, I know. Just keep an eye on it.

Rags, when in the heck did you ever have time to be an air craft mechanic?  How is the big doc coming along, btw?

Offline Rags

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2009, 08:45:40 pm »
Quote
Rags, when in the heck did you ever have time to be an air craft mechanic?  How is the big doc coming along, btw?

That was a past life. 10 years. Before the big fall. The paper is in progress, and getting ready to submit the bastard to the IRB (internal review boards of ethics).
That's to make sure I'm not causing anyone any undue harm by asking them to play with my laptop.

Guess we'll have to do some climibing. then you'll get to hear all the stories. Like the time I almost blew uip a mooney.

Back to soloing... its safer.
Be Safe, Live Long, Climb Hard!

Rick

Offline hoipolloi

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2009, 02:45:57 pm »
Ok, so here is what I did.  What do you all think?  Am I going to die (obviously I may, but really, what do you think)?

EDIT:  I also figured out it hangs a little bit higher if I put the mallion that holds it to my chest straight onto the sling crossing my chest, not to the chest ring on the yates.  *shrug*  I haven't used the grigri set up like this before, normally I Have just let it hang floppy at the waist, but this seems like it will improve flow and help speed things up a little.  We'll see...

EDIT: Is that mallion I have the same type one would recommend using connected to the opposite end?  Better go to home depot and look at some mallions.  That shortens the system perfectly to all hang snug as a bug, thus flow much better.

EDIT:  I can't make my photobucket photos work, Don't know whats up, tried everything.  Go to the links to see them...

http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m192/dwallfrey/grigri/?action=view&current=P1010237.jpg

http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m192/dwallfrey/grigri/?action=view&current=P1010241.jpg

http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m192/dwallfrey/grigri/?action=view&current=P1010242.jpg

http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m192/dwallfrey/grigri/?action=view&current=P1010244.jpg

http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m192/dwallfrey/grigri/?action=view&current=P1010243.jpg

http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m192/dwallfrey/grigri/?action=view&current=P1010247.jpg


cheers.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 02:58:37 pm by hoipolloi »

Offline johnmac

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2009, 03:17:22 pm »
The mallion goes on the other end of the grigri, so it replaces your biner. I have a petzl mallion that was designed for Caving. Not sure whether it is any stronger than the hardware shop type but the finish is very nice and shiny....


Offline hoipolloi

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2009, 03:33:50 pm »
just got a second mallion, going to use one on either end.  This one is Stainless Steel 5/16 thick with a 2000lbs working load. Seems strong enough.

Offline Rags

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2009, 11:06:07 pm »
1. Am I going to die?

Yes, you're gonna die.

2. "Better go to home depot and look at some mallions."

You can't get Mallions at Home Depot (well maybe). Real Mallions are French. what you usually get in hardware stores are cheap Chinese imitations, they are simply screw links. Not necessarily an issue here, but it seems everyone calls them Mallions when they may not be. This can become an important distinction if you use one in a critical location. Besides that little cord is gonna break long before the link, get 3/16th instead of the 1/4'er.
Real Mallion Rapides- http://www.peguet.fr/fr/peguet-produits.html

3. ..the same type one would recommend using connected to the opposite end? 

I wouldn't. Use the steel locker.

4. Some folk cut the handle off so it doesn't get caught up with the rope in a fall. IMHO the handle should at the least be taped down.

5. Now throw the whole rig out and get a solo-aid. I will never be a fan of using the gri for this application. Ever ask why mods are necessary to make this work?

I know, "What's with he negative vibes?"


One more item - I just cut that ring off my Yates rack for the very same reason. I prefer to clip to the strap and the ring gets in the way. If I need the ring I'll use a small link.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 11:10:55 pm by Rags »
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Rick

Offline Paulhauser

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Re: Soloing Belay Device Question
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2009, 02:00:39 pm »
I'm using the same system, but even if I clip the top biner directly to the Yates' strap, sans ring, the grigri is still flipping around, making crossloading the low biner possible. So now I put the cord on the top of the grigri directly to the cross strap of the Yates chest harness. It takes more time to remove, but for me it is ok.