Author Topic: Advice needed from gurus, ladders and adjustables. ????  (Read 950 times)

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Offline xtrmecat

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Advice needed from gurus, ladders and adjustables. ????
« on: December 19, 2013, 10:43:39 am »
I will try to keep this brief but it will probably be long so I can make it clear, so here goes... I use and have almost always used adjustable aiders and have only found a couple shortcomings with them. In many other discussions I have been told that they are fine until I get into harder terrain. This has been mentioned more than once, so not wanting to be left behind I started my "get into shape workout for next years wall" using only the new Yates ladders. To explain further, we have zip for cracks here so the only good workout I can get is hooking some slighty less than verticle face climbs, and clip the bolts when I can.

  I have done this many times with my adjustables with only some small issues like a traversing move from hook to hook. This is slightly easier with the ladders but I have run into a huge problem withmovement up a ladder when the features run out for hands. I will explain.

  With adjustables I can set the step height to whatever I need as I need it by tugging on the tail as I move up, most of the time I can adjust my daisy about right and stand up hard against it to stand tall and have some balance when finding the next feature to hook. With the ladders I seem to have to stand up too tall or not reach. I am able to sub top step, but only with the tip of my toe in the ladder, as pulling it out to get more foot in just unseats my hook and away I go. Teeing off is easy to do if I do not get too high, but the features only allow this once in a while, and mostly do not. Here is the real problem, the ladder restricts my ability to put a foot out each side for stability when an off balance reach is needed, but with the adjustables this has become intuitive. I tried to flag but it also almost always results in a spill out of the ladder. I tried to bend the knees of both legs accordingly and need to turn the knees out to aquire the needed balance and oh my god did I wreck my knees.

  I quit running a couple years ago as the knees are on the edge of done, and I know I can expect some discomfort, but this is out of control. I rode the bike for two days to loosen them up and after a six hour work out, two days of anti inflamatories and light use they are baked. No way I can do a grade V or VI in this condition.

  Any one see my technique flaw, or have any tips to work "the steep" for a ladder newby? Like I stated, the rock is just under verticle, but the climbs I am looking at in the next season are verticle to overhanging so I must aquire a good technique or just consider my self doomed to adjustable aiders the rest of my life, and limited to their abilities.

  I am going to keep trying to adapt as hard as I can, I just need some tips to figure out the proper use to walk up the steeper stuff without killing my knees, and quite falling over when standing tall on the featureless steep.

  Burly Bob

Offline rocky IV

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Re: Advice needed from gurus, ladders and adjustables. ????
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2013, 10:54:53 am »
Don't hook on established free climbs. That's really bad form.

Offline xtrmecat

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Re: Advice needed from gurus, ladders and adjustables. ????
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2013, 02:43:14 pm »
Rocky, don't sweat the detail of harming an existing free climb, the rock here is harder than one would think. Also I am going up via a nonexistant line with two of the worst thin crimpfests on either side. Just using the anchors and bolts when I can. The one to the right is the hardest 5.9 around, and on the left, a super thin sharp crimpy 10C.

  Kind of a "do what you gotta do". If you want to put up a line where I am hooking it should go in the 13 or14's, but the qaulity would be crap, and probably never see a second ascent.


   Burly Bob

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Advice needed from gurus, ladders and adjustables. ????
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2013, 03:23:37 pm »
If I take your process right, what about kicking an opposite foot out for balance just as you make the reach? e.g. reaching up and right, kick out the left foot from the ladder (assuming you are using two ladders).
That tends to be like a free move, in that your body balance is symmetrical.  It's hard to hold for long periods of time, but that's what makes an Aid rating a "+" in some cases, aka the awkward factor.


Teeing off in less than vertical terrain should cover most options.

True top stepping is going to be limited to vertical, and less than vertical (IMHO).


Let me know what I'm missing Bob.

Offline cobbledik

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Re: Advice needed from gurus, ladders and adjustables. ????
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2013, 05:16:38 pm »
I think bbo mentioned throwing a leg out while in the ladders when he says he's tried flagging.

I'm still a little unclear what the overall question is though...
Sometimes the difference between a layman and a journeyman is simply what he is allowed to believe himself to be.

Offline xtrmecat

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Re: Advice needed from gurus, ladders and adjustables. ????
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2013, 06:27:14 pm »
  Munge, I wasn't using two ladders, as I only own two and the other I just got off of, and about to get onto when I find the next placement. I guess what I hear you say is to use two, and flag with the other foot still in ladder? I think this is what gave me more stability in the adjustables. The hooking is very thin, and most of the placements won't hold at all, so some time is needed to find the right little nubbing to make it stick. I think this is why the ladders are kicking my butt. Too much time reaching at my limit, and no stability and trying to use my legs results in pulling the hook off, and killing my knees in the process, or too much time and the balance just cannot be kept due to nothing for the hands to hold my top end from tipping out backwards or sideways.

 Thanks for some thought fuel.

  Cobbledik, I guess the question is what am I missing? I can make these same moves much easier in adjustable stirrups, and have for years. Trying to force new equipment on myself because it has been suggested that it is something that is holding me back. I just cannot get a decent reach from ladders without either going over backwards, or pulling the hook when I apply too much outward force on the ladders. Adjustables do not limit my feet to being within 8 inches horizontally of each other, and it is kicking my rear all over some not too difficult rock. Just looking for tips or pointers that may help me open my world up to harder aid, that's all.

  Three aiders may help, and it was suggested via the Taco I consider Russian aiders. Great stuff here, so simple that I never even saw it before it hit me in the face just now. Splat!

  Burly Bob

Offline cobbledik

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Re: Advice needed from gurus, ladders and adjustables. ????
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2013, 07:00:47 pm »
I've used Russian aiders for a while, I doubt they would help because if the awkwardness of needing to get you shin/calf over into the small rings (only an issue for traversing hooks)

I see now, I though adjustable refering to daisies instead of stirrups. Highstepping on a hook on vertical or more-than-vertical terrain without handholds is going to be shitty no matter what you're using I would think.

A fun trick I've recently learned that only applies to soloing is to prussik the hook you're standing on tight on the rope against the anchor. Then the tension holding the hook is based upon the fixed anchor rather than your own body weight. Then, the weird angles of force when your second or top stepping on the hook become moot.

Also, if you're only using two ladders, you can clip both to your current hook while making the next hook move (connected via daisies) and then move one ladder to the now upper hook being tensioned by the daisy.
Sometimes the difference between a layman and a journeyman is simply what he is allowed to believe himself to be.

Offline kristoffer

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Re: Advice needed from gurus, ladders and adjustables. ????
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2013, 01:45:03 pm »
If you are pleased with your previous results with adjustable equipment why not just stick with it?

“I have been told that they are fine until I get into harder terrain.”

“I am able to sub top step, but only with the tip of my toe in the ladder, as pulling it out to get more foot in just unseats my hook and away I go.”

Bob, the sub top step is still pretty high to be getting while climbing thin/marginal hooks.  But I wouldn’t even start to say that top stepping is the only KEY to climbing harder aid… Testing gear appropriately might be more so the key to success. In reality doing sustained testing of marginal gear from my top steps is something that I find rarely happens. . I may take a quick jog to the highest step physically available just to place my next piece of gear, but immediately I step back to a stable position on my lower ladder and proceed to test the new piece of gear via my daisy chain. The reason I get back into the lower position is so WHEN that new piece of marginal gear pops during the bounce test I can dynamically re position myself onto my lower aider without causing the cascading failure of marginal placements from a daisy fall..   I sport 2 fifi hooks and traditional daisys for such climbing. 

also, don’t be afraid to use a placement that are only a several inches above your previous placement, it’s a war of distance, and the battles are won in inches.
   
If you want to climb in a quicker alpine style, use the ladders and learn to enjoy being uncomfortable. If you’re up there to camp and have fun, by all means do it whatever damn way you like doing it.

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Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Advice needed from gurus, ladders and adjustables. ????
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2013, 03:22:20 pm »
^^^

yeah, that's what I meant to say. :)


nice Kristoffer