Author Topic: Rivet replacement ins and outs?  (Read 659 times)

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Offline Prod

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Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« on: July 19, 2015, 08:51:10 am »
Looking at climbing NNL in Sept. It has been recommended that I may need to replace a rivet or 2.

I have a blot kit but have never hand drilled a bolt.

Anyone got any advice on....
  • Pulling the old rivet?
    Locating new bolt?
    3/8" bolt, 2 1/2" long?
    Do you bolt on stance or lower from above?
    Etc?
    Etc?

Cheers,

Prod.

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2015, 10:02:48 pm »
Traditional wisdom is practice the rebolting on the ground/on some existing crag rebolt projects with folks who do rebolting on the regular.

Have a familiarity with how to do a good hole, or re-use an existing hole is a hard sell while you're on the wall.


Also, replacing a rivet is done with replacing a rivet in some circles, not a bolt.  Opinions vary, but the principle I've grown to learn is that the replacement shouldn't substantially alter the character of the existing climb as it was originally established. So, if e.g. it was a quarter inch bolt, the new standard is to upgrade.

But if it is a true rivet with a machine head bolt hammered into a hole, then replacing that with a full on bolt does seem to change the character of the climb.


anyways, some stuff to think about...

Offline mungeclimber

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Offline Prod

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2015, 01:57:15 pm »
Nice TR and advice Munge.

Thanks,

Prod.

Offline lambone

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2015, 01:01:38 am »
Seen this?
https://vimeo.com/53299008

My first experience using a drill came on El Cap, Mescalito in 2007 or '08. I had carried a small bolt kit for years but had never been forced to actually take it out and use it.

Well the opportunity came up on pitch 16 or 17 of Mesc when I climbed up to a sheered off rivet. It looked like the move could be bypassed by some funky swinging and rotten hooking shenanigans to way to the left, and some beta I had gotten was that it went. But I said "fuck it I'm just gunna replace the old broken rivet."

So I got started on the hardest thing I had ever done on EC up to that point. I had to get high in my 2nd step to place the new rivet at an equal height to the old one. My fifi length wasn't quite right and I had a heck of a time standing in the aiders while I drilled, I couldn't quite lock my knees straight and  had to rest my calf muscles many times. So my first piece of advice is make sure your system is dialed so you can stand and reach high in the aiders comfortably.

The biggest mistake I made and I think is fairly common was not drilling the rivet hole quite deep enough. With those split shank 1/4ers you really need it to go in past the split part or the rivet is significantly weaker. I wonder if the one I placed is still even there.

Having the right tools is important. With a set of tuning forks you can usually remove an old rivet and re-use the hole. This will save you a lot of time and effort and is just the cleaner way to go. Also if you can't re-use the hole you'll want some patch kit material to cover up the old one.

My buddy Keenan and I replaced like 8 or 9 old Anchor bolts on Sunkist and by the end we were getting pretty efficient at it. We were removing the old 1/4 inches and widening the old holes to 3/8. Which is tricky because the bit tends to bind in the old hole.

Couple peices of advice are that I've learned the hard way are:
-have your kit well organized and easy to use on lead.
-be able to get up high and maintain that position for like 20-30 min (if you are slow at it like me)
-3-5 taps then twist, light fast taps.
-blow out the hole a few times and measure the depth with the blow tube and make sure it's deep enough.

There are people on here with way more drilling experience then me who probly have better advice. But hopefully that helps a little. Bottom line is you just gotta do it to figure it out, so go find some choosy Boulder to practice on. Also lots of bolting threads on Supertopo.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 09:54:36 am by lambone »

Offline Prod

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2015, 06:37:31 am »
Great advice and excellent vid Lam.

Thanks,

Prod.

Offline *Mucci*

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2015, 01:22:14 pm »
Metal in rock dude!  (that's what we say when asked how good the rivet is....Hehe)

Sound like munge and Lambone got ya covered.

I would deal with the rivet before you move past it on lead.  At least you will feel better about the lead if it is a crucial point of fixed protection.




Offline cobbledik

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2015, 02:02:47 pm »
My only issue is that a " splitshaft is a BOLT not a rivet, so replacing a machine head with a bolt is obviously more sustainable but changes the placement from a progression piece to a protection piece. This def changes the character of the lead.

Although...

Placing a machine head is good enough to catch a fall for the FA party (if placed well) and over time can become less so. With this thinking, replacing the machine head with a " splitshaft actually does retain the character of the route to the FA experience.

Idk, it's all grey area the longer you think about it
Sometimes the difference between a layman and a journeyman is simply what he is allowed to believe himself to be.

Offline Mike.

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2015, 06:59:23 pm »
My only issue is that a " splitshaft is a BOLT not a rivet, so replacing a machine head with a bolt is obviously more sustainable but changes the placement from a progression piece to a protection piece.

Let's be clear with the terminology.

A rivet, in a hardware context, is a hollow alloy piece meant to hold sheet metal against something. Rarely is a rivet used in climbing. WEML has them; I've never seen one elsewhere.

In a climbing context, a rivet is a bolt without a hanger. Machine heads are bolts, as are expansion bolts of all dimensions, obviously.

Sure, some of these newer, ridiculous 3/8", giant button head "rivets" could be belayed off, but are not really in the spirit of why/how rivets came to be. That's the gray area, not what is or is not a rivet.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 07:03:36 pm by Mike. »
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2015, 10:36:30 pm »
My definition is different and based upon the principle of what type of fall it can withstand, in general.


"Machine heads are bolts"  Machine heads are not bolts. A crappy machine head will fail at a much lower rating than a modest solid 3/8 wedge bolt. A large machine head (like the one on Zodiac?), could hold a whip, but that's the exception, no?

3/8" buttonheads are bolts, assuming the rock hasn't cratered on install. I've rebolting one of these in a lodestone and it was a nightmare coming out. Though I don't know what they are rated to.

Offline Mike.

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2015, 08:44:31 am »
""Machine heads are bolts"  Machine heads are not bolts."

This is true if you disregard what the thing truthfully is, and consider only how it's used for climbing, but people often don't segregate the two meanings, which causes confusion like in the post I responded to. But never mind my semantics. Get back to the big issues, like whether something is A1 or A1+.

: )
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2015, 11:08:42 am »
Really, we should stop using the term 'rivet' altogether. I can see that.

Heretofore, shall hereafter be:

Machine Head = Machine Head
Rivet = Non existent, except WEML
Bolt = Required discussion of size, age, type, no exceptions.

lol


I <3 ratings discussions!!! :)



Offline Mike.

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2015, 11:44:11 am »
I like...now all we need is our own special word that denotes a hangerless bolt. Maybe..."hangerless bolt"? It's got to be clearer than borrowing a word that already has a precise definition, then having to explain it time and again on web forums. Ah, the lexicon. Don't get me started on "continuous loop"...

Cheers, Mungeclimber.  8-)
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2015, 11:50:21 am »
Hangerless Bolt shall be "Mike.'s metal sketchy sticks!"

heheheh

cheers hombre! good to see you back on the boards.

Offline kristoffer

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2015, 01:13:29 pm »
aluminum dowels are the golden standard.
"I am plagued by a mindless nonchalance and petrified zen"

Offline *Mucci*

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2015, 06:21:05 pm »
I have used all types and sizes of "rivets"

The shortest are always where there is good gear below.

Ladders are interspersed with 1/4" button heads and carriage bolts in between.
We moved to a SS carriage bolt for the head size and poundability.  Regular machine heads get deerformed sometimes.


I have been caught by both 1.25" x 1/4" button heads and rivets.

If a FA'st weighs out the placement, the appropriate bolt, rivet etc will get placed.

Metal In rock as we say.   Bomber.

Offline cobbledik

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2015, 11:03:09 am »
""Machine heads are bolts"  Machine heads are not bolts."
This is true if you disregard what the thing truthfully is, and consider only how it's used for climbing, but people often don't segregate the two meanings, which causes confusion like in the post I responded to. But never mind my semantics.

Semantics is important because it deals with how the meaning of your words are to be understood be the receiver. Separating "hardware store" meaning from "climbing" meaning is always fun because it causes discussion, but you're then taking the language out of its context, which is pointless to the goal of understanding what is being said. If this was a hardware store forum, or a construction forum, or a <3rivets forum the technical definition of a rivet in a hardware store/construction/<3rivets is relevant. Since this is a climbing forum, the contextual understanding of the use of the term is built into the assumed understanding of the language. trying to cram one into the other is disingenuous at best.

Let's be truthful. No one is attaching sheet metal to anything with a rivet in a climbing context, so we throw that specific definition out.

Truthfully, the term of "rivet" is a catch-all in climbing for a type of "metal in rock" as Mucci so deftly put it. That type? This is where the truth comes into play.

Truthfully, the contextual understanding of the different groups of metal in rock are progression versus protection which you conveniently disregarded.

rivets are progression
bolts are protection

what makes the distinction? active force against the rock via compression of expansion.

We then go even further with the level of active force.

Do machine heads have active force? sure, the threads get jammed against the shaft BUT the technical term for how much active force would probably be "crappy." Zmac's have active force as well, but just as crappy.

Which is why the ability to catch a fall keeps coming up. progression vs protection.
Protection = Bolt
- split shaft 1/4" buttonhead
- 3/8" expansion bolt
- above without a hanger, bolt.

Progression = Rivet
- machine head
- zmac
- dowel

Ah but wait! "but people often don't segregate the two meanings, which causes confusion like in the post I responded to" Hmmmmm, let's return to the point about context, which is that on a bigwall climbing forum, people may not separate the meanings because they don't need to. The context of the forum defines the meaning as climbing context, not hardware store context.

But what about the bolts without a hanger!?! Aren't rivets just hangerless metal in rock? I understand that inexperienced climbers acting upon what they see rather than an understanding of its use often make this mistake and should be corrected through millions of thread posts. Does this mean that routes like Hurricane Jingus on Falls Wall have rivet belays because those bolts are hangerless? Granted, if you put a shitty wire rivet hanger on the bolts, they might not be good enough to catch a fall, but that's a question of the hanger and not the bolt itself. If I place a 1/2" x 3" expansion bolt in rock and then use a wet spaghetti noodle for the hanger, did I just place a rivet?

Whatever. I'm done and I'm not going to proofread or spellcheck this because i'm at work and I should probably do some of the things that they sort of pay me for.
Sometimes the difference between a layman and a journeyman is simply what he is allowed to believe himself to be.

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2015, 12:12:10 pm »
aluminum dowels are the golden standard.


Wouldn't a 24kt gold dowel be the standard?  :-P

Offline cobbledik

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2015, 01:26:03 pm »
Too soft at 24k
Sometimes the difference between a layman and a journeyman is simply what he is allowed to believe himself to be.

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2015, 01:30:56 pm »
post your testing results or invalid!

;)

Offline Mike.

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2015, 01:53:54 pm »
"rivets are progression
bolts are protection"

Vice versa, too.

Thanks, Munge. It's great to be back online talking about stuff that doesn't matter  :-)
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2015, 03:33:55 pm »
we could switch to politics?  :-o

Offline *Mucci*

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2015, 09:15:31 pm »
One rivet I placed stands out.

Cratered the placement,  but i knew it was "good enuff"... Heh.

hook, and a couple shitty beaks to the belay.

I go to replace the rivet, and I mean TOUCHED it from below with the hammer, and it fell into my hand.  2 threads deep.

New 1.25" split shaft bolt with washers goes in.

Plaid man tried the 3rd ascent of the route.  Took a big whinger onto that bolt. He is like me, no spring chicken.



Gotta leave it in good shape, a duty of the FA.  Especially nowadays.










Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2015, 10:29:13 pm »
"New 1.25" split shaft bolt with washers goes in."


why no hanger? I think you told me before... something about that's the piece you used and it didn't have a hanger then, so it didn't get a hanger on replace.


kinda cool, in situ rebolting.

Offline *Mucci*

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Re: Rivet replacement ins and outs?
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2015, 10:38:59 pm »
Exactly, it was way sketch knowing that the rivet would knott hold a fall as I climbed above.  If that rivet placement had failed on Plaidman, it would have been a 60+ foot fall. 


A bolt, like a fatty 3/8ths with hanger would change the character right there, bigtime. 

Even putting a hanger on the split shaft seemed like a waste, it is a stretcher move I heard..