Author Topic: Short Fixing Ettiquette Question  (Read 1768 times)

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Offline Garbonzo

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Short Fixing Ettiquette Question
« on: October 31, 2007, 11:36:25 pm »
On my last failure I dabbled with a bit of short fixing, but what came to mind was who hauls?  It occurs to me that it should be the cleaner most of the time, since you want to keep the leader leading as much as possible.  Kinda sucks for the cleaner (boohoo).  Is this the proper setup, or should you generally haul, then return to leading?  I guess if you have a bad haul, you'd have to haul first to make it possible for the cleaner to un-stick the back as you went along.

Other thoughts?

Offline lambone

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Re: Short Fixing Ettiquette Question
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2007, 12:28:16 am »
Other thoughts?

Don't haul.

Offline Baltoro

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Re: Short Fixing Ettiquette Question
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2007, 08:31:58 pm »
These is mostly theory as I have not done it myself but you can possibly link hauls, particulalry if it's very steep and thus a low risk of the bag hanging up and requiring someone to rap down to free it. The leader would essentially be shortfixing the haulrope, just like they would the lead rope, but in a way that would still allow the second to lower it out as needed from the second anchor. The second would skip hauling at the middle station and wait to haul from the next belay, thus only having to set up the haul once for two pitches. For most mortals this would reduce the number of hauling sessions to only a couple to a few times a day.

We tend to look at Supertopos and see the pitches we can link on lead, particularly if shortfixing or soloing (no rope drag). Why don't we look closer at which hauls can be linked as well as that's not always the same as linkable lead pitches? Maybe a belay has a crappy anchor placement thus requring you to haul over an edge or that pulls the bag into a corner or flake, almost guaranteeing the need to go down to free it.

The alternative beta of don't haul is certainly valid too. There's a lot to be said for a tiny pack for both climbers and at most a mini haul bag that can more or less be hand hauled or at least hauled with minimal effort and time.

Sorry for the ramblings of some stuck in an airport awaiting a flight...


still waiting...

Sometimes I succeed. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes I am too lazy to do either.
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Offline lunchbox

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Re: Short Fixing Ettiquette Question
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2007, 01:59:29 am »
Baltoro,

Let me start by laying a couple of ground rules here, and then I talk about your theory, which is workable, as i've used it once myself.

The only time the second can leave the belay and leave the bags behind is when they are untethered and sitting on a ledge in such a way that they could never fall off their perch.  Sure, you could rig the old "hang it off a FiFi rope solo method" but that is way scary.  Also, I might add that if you can link pitches on lead you can most certainly link them with your haul line, as it is always going to hang plum and therefore be, in essence, longer that your lead line.  The rare exception here being that you may need a separate lower out line because you can't tie the bags in short and use the left over haul line to lower the pig. 

back to the theory....In real life this is workable, but i've only used it once while climbing the Trip.  On the 5th pitch of the Trip there is an intermediate belay that people can use when bailing from above the roof.  We short fixed both the lead line and the haulu line off this belay, using a Wild Country Ropeman in conjunction with a Munter Mule knot.  I was able to short fix, let my partner release the bags to start cleaning and skip a haul station.  I'm still not sure exactly why we did this.  Maybe it was a combination of the time it takes to clean a traversing pitch like this and desire to keep moving. 

Anyway, that black alien crack after the anchors is spicy to leap frog cams on. 

The primary time limiting factor for this procedure is that the leader will run out of haul line and be forced to haul every two pitches.  The haul line, when short fixing, is also the resupply line and you can't leave the belay without it.  So when you link pitches without hauling on every pitch the leader is forced to stop and haul.  They will also be out of gear and rope. 

Lambone mentions not hauling at all, but I would argue that change overs are the most costly time procedures on a wall.  Of course your going to short fix for all your InAD speed ascents,  but the time you save, even when the leader hauls and then leads again is very significant.  It will save you at least a 1/4 of a pitch for every pitch you short fix, turning your 4 pitch day into a 6 pitch day with little or no extra effort.  More importantly, you'll save a full day of climbing and a full day of food and water weight too.  So, hauling gets easier too as your over all weight goes down. 

There are a million other reason why you should lead in blocks that have nothing to do with speed climbing.     

   


Offline lambone

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Re: Short Fixing Ettiquette Question
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2007, 10:58:05 am »
Ok, if you want to haul and short fix, what I would do is this:

Bring three ropes, Lead, Haul, and Tag (and a rope bag for the tag line).

Leader goes up top first anchor fixes the rope, tags up haul line and hauler -> rigs the haul. Leader flakes tag into a rope bag and clips it off to the anchor, starts soloing.

Second cuts bag loose and starts jugging.

Second jugs/cleans, and hauls. Puts leader on belay when done hauling or leader is out of rope.

Second tags up the hauler and tag line and extra rack to the leader (with the tag line ropebag).

Rinse and repeat.

My guess is that this would only be faster and more efficient for climbers who can solo and clean fast. Also the haulbag has to be light enough that the second can handle it on his own.


Offline mawk

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Re: Short Fixing Ettiquette Question
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2007, 11:22:40 am »
Climbed two walls this past season with PTPP.  So keep in mind that Pete has a couple orders of magnitude more experience than me, which undoubtedly had some influence on our methods.  This is what we did.

1) Leader always hauled (usually Pete but I did manage to get in four of my own).  On more than one occasion the bags got stuck and had to be freed by the second.

2) Zip line:  5mm in it's own bag.  Second always had zip-bag on him, also responsible for management of zip line (it likes to get tangled with the haul line, a very bad thing).  The top end was pre-rigged on a wall-hauler making it very convenient for the leader to zip up a fairly large amount of gear if needed.

3) After hauling the leader could start to lead the next pitch.  By then the second was usually almost done cleaning and loaded with gear the leader needed; easy to zip it on up at this point or at any time for that matter even if the second is only half way through cleaning the previous pitch.

4) While belaying the second would get everything organized and ready so when the leader finished and called for the "zip rack" (containing anchor set-up and hauling gear and anything else the leader might ask for) it was ready to go.

Offline lunchbox

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Re: Short Fixing Ettiquette Question
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2007, 01:06:04 am »
I've never used a zip line to tag before.  I always just haul like mad when I get to the belay after cleaning to get enough gear to the leader, so he can keep moving.   This almost always results in two separate tags.  The first is aways a small resupply and the second one sends the hauler, anchor kit and the rest of the rack.  If your lucky the leader will still have some rope to solo with so you can haul and get the bags docked.   

Lambone is right,  you can't be a slow cleaner and work this system or your leader will be out of rope and haul line by the time you hit the belay. 

Ivo said they used 80 meter ropes when they did Reticent Wall in a push.  It takes a long time to clean harder nailing pitches.  I think the pitches are all long on that one too.   

Offline Baltoro

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Re: Short Fixing Ettiquette Question
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2007, 02:24:18 pm »
Lunchbox
I am used to Lambone's method of three ropes if you're planning on hauling and shortfixing frequently.

Other than that, I was envisioning this method for routes such as Tangerine Trip, or anything with really steep sections where a hanging bag is not going to cause problems.

Obviously this is something that more often than not isn't worth the hassle, but sometimes it is. To me that's the ideal is having a variety of methods and techniques for doing tasks so that when the situation arises, you've got the skills to implement the ideal method and you don't just have to use the "normal" method which might suck in this situation.

Sometimes I succeed. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes I am too lazy to do either.
M. Twight