Author Topic: New thread: Zodiac clean  (Read 5567 times)

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Offline Rags

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New thread: Zodiac clean
« on: March 21, 2008, 07:16:22 pm »
I'm gonna start this thread over so we don't hijack     Offset's thread.

I wrote 
 I'm looking at doing Zodiac around September (my  B-day :).  My goal is to do it all clean, or close as possible, even if it's harder.
So for those that have attempted it,  How hard is Zodiac to do clean (after the cleanup)?

What gear makes or breaks it?
On others suggestions I've decided do Ten Days After as a warm up.



Jake:
My general rack to avoid nailing.  Bring some of the BD peckers in all sizes for hand placing!  Some sawed offs for hand hitting.  I have found that, it is quick to hand place those suckers than fiddle with nuts or dicey cam.  Then if you have offset nuts and cams, sliders, and cam hooks... you should be good.

Other tips...rurps with broken cables, have a small rivet hanger that you can thread throuh the hole.
Leave standard cams and nuts as the pro instead of offset stuff.
Don't test fixed heads... if you don't want to nail, just get on that fixed stuff and be willing to take a fall.


Lambone:
edit: oops I just dittoed Jake!
You'll want cam hooks, and offset cams and nuts.  Also you can use beaks as hooks without nailing them, handplaced sawed offs work well also.

Couple good moderate warm ups would be:
Ten Days After
and
Wet Denim Daydream


New


Thanx for the input. How many/size sawed offs are we talking, couple 1/2" and couple 5/8"?

How does the rivet hanger on a broken RURP work? I'm familiar with both, but don't see it.

I have the cam hooks (love'em by the way), gonna have to get offsets nuts from the YMS. Offfset cams, now there's an issue. Don't have any but I'm hoping to have some by Sept. I'll probably get a few of the smallest sizes (Alien or Metolius)

Jake, not sure what your suggesting with,"Leave standard cams and nuts as the pro instead of offset stuff"
If I'm using an offset to make a move, not likely I'm gonna pull it unless I'm backcleaning. I probably used it because nothing else worked. Enlighten me.

And I have a few Peckers, anyone use the Pika stuff?
Mallards for pin scars,  are the Auk or Toucans any good?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 07:18:16 pm by Rags »
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Rick

Offline Garbonzo

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2008, 11:24:02 pm »
Rivet hangers are not for broken rurps, but for rurps with missing/broken wires.  For example P4 of the trip has 3-4 rurps that are buried and probably bomber, but no wires (though in that case there is other mank available to get around them).  1/16" rivet hangers can be threaded through the eye to make them useful again, if necessary.  Alternatively, a small hand swager and a few ferrules, and some extra precut pieces of wire can be brought along if you want to do maintenance instead of just getting by (also handy if you need to replace a busted trigger wire mid-pitch).

As for leaving behind standard stuff, and not offset, that is just strategy.  Most folks can easily muster 3-4x of the standard stuff, but usually barely have doubles of the offset stuff (if you're that lucky).  Usually an offset can be made to work in a splitter crack, but the opposite is not always true.  I think it was just an advisement to treat a lot of the offset as progression pieces rather than protection pieces.  I really hate leaving behind my second to last size of any piece, especially and green-yellow, or plain yellow alien...

Offline Rags

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2008, 11:38:00 am »
Ya, thanx

I understood that it was a broken cable not the RURP itself, but there are two type of hangers.
The loop type and the "cinch" ( looks like a head with the end bent over). I guess you are referring to the loop type. I had the other in mind.

I agree, the offsets are precious. In the context you mention it makes perfect sense. So many belays are bolted now that I wasn't even thinking of natural anchors.



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Rick

Offline lambone

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2008, 11:56:15 am »
That section on p4 of the Trip was the crux I thought. I couldn't use any of the fixed rurps and ended up nailing 3 beaks in a row, two came out with my fingers.

You need super tiny cable to lace through most fixed rurp eyes, and something small to poke it through with. I was unsuccsesful after trying for a while.

Offline Mike.

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2008, 01:45:12 pm »
Hey, guys,

Can't really comment on the Clean Zod, but RE Rags' Q: "I have a few Peckers, anyone use the Pika stuff? Mallards for pin scars, are the Auk or Toucans any good?":

Pika seems to get a bad rap, but I've used a few of their pieces and really liked them. I had a lg Auk that I used so much it finally broke. I have heard the steel used is not as bomber as some, but I loved the design and that it had a biner hole rather than a #2 cable. (BTW, I generally have all my stock #2 cables [RURPs, Beaks, etc] replaced with #3.) Mine was an older non-canted one.

I still have a Toucan which is a great piece. The cant in the stem makes it sweet for corners, although you'd have to have both left and right canted versions to be totally set up with those. I have a Mallard that I honestly never used on several walls, so finally benched it.


The larger BD Peckers are amazing. The sharp point can be a tad bothersome on the rack, and could even be dangerous in an odd situation, but nothing I've used comes close for thin nailing and hand placing. The point makes all the diff. These would work where a Mallard will--maybe better. The Peckers are engineered for reasonably easy cleaning, have a biner hole, and a #2 cable. These things really feel like cheating, just an amazing tool for thin work.

Modifying beak-type pins can be just as useful as modifying angles. I have a bunch of shortened beaks. On those and some regular ones, I sharpened the stem below the "beak" to increase stability in placements above bulges. There, the sharpened stem will either allow a more vert orientation of the beak, or allow the stem to be driven with the beak part of the pin. Either way, more stable. RE the BD Peckers, if I had my shit together I would upfit all the cables, shorten a few tips, and sharpen their stems as well. Also, I'd like to have my metal guru bend a cant in some of them on his press break so the cables don't get so worked in 90? corners (and to promote camming action). More fiddling, yep, but it's great to have just the right stuff for surgical precision (read: minimal hammering, optimal security, easiest cleaning).

Cheers, homies.
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline lambone

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2008, 01:53:59 pm »
I carried Mallards for a while, never used them, so ditched them from the rack. Toucans are cool and can be bomber, I made the mistake of nailing one with a couple soft blows and promptly fixed it in place, so be carefull about that, remember it's a camming tool, kinda like a cam hook. Hammering either peice will surely get it stuck.

Offline Baltoro

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2008, 03:30:41 pm »
I'm shooting for Zodiac clean in the fall as well and here's what I'm bringing along (plus the usual stuff)

3x Peckers in each size #1-3, 9 total
1x 1/2" sawed angle and one 1/2" angle
1x 5/8" sawed angle and one 5/8" angle
2x 3/4" sawed angle and one 3/4" angle
2x 1" sawed angle and one 1" angle

The Supertaco arrow and KB assortment.

2 sets of CCH Hybrids from black/blue to yellow/red
2 sets of BD C3s
likely one set of Metolius offset TCU's and/or the new Master Cams
2 sets of Trango Ball-Nuts
2 sets of cam hooks
2 Pika Toucans
4 sets of HB offset nuts from 3-6
2 sets of HB nuts from 0-2
2 sets of DMM offsets from 7-11

I've found with the C3's and the CCH Hybrids that they both sometimes go where the other one won't. I'm hoping that either the Metolius offsets or the Master Cams will provide another option. It seems to me that having as many clean options as possible is the ticket, even if that means dragging along a little more shit.

Also, sometimes you have to take the placement that doesn't really yield you the distance between placements that you might like but it might allow you to skip that placement that might require the hammer.

Figure on going a little slower than you might if you were nailing and like Jake said, be prepared to go for the occasional ride and don't test fixed stuff. Well at least not too much. Just be quick on and off it.

Also for fixed Rurps and/or #1 Peckers, I've had good luck once with beefier key chains. You can thread them into the hole and clip a biner into that. Be quick as they don't inspire much confidence.

Third also, don't be afraid to equalize two or more placements that alone might be crap, but together might get you through without the hammer. That and do some 'fraid climbing. It's not quite free and it's not quite aid and you're definitely afraid! This might mean crimping for all your worth on that Huber's only edge out left while you scum your left shoe on that nubbin and proudly stand tall in your aider with your right foot for a move you'd never be able to make without partially getting out of your aid only mindset. Free shoes are a good thing sometimes, even for just a move or two to avoid the hammer. And chalk!! Chalk: It's not just for free climbing!

I'm psyched and I just climbed this morning!! I need to go clean house or something boring. Good thread!

PS-Notice I said "clean" house and not aid house!! Ha!
Sometimes I succeed. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes I am too lazy to do either.
M. Twight

Offline Rags

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2008, 04:54:59 pm »
Wow, imagine getting info on a forum, real good shit. I'm stoked now.

I like that "sharp stem" mod Mike, that makes some sense, and shortened ones. So I'll invest in some more beaks, maybe a couple Toucans, dump the Mallard idea.

The cable through the RURP is something I should go out and try.  Sounds like Lambone's experience with it isn't all great.

Baltoro,  that's a good rack your carrying. I'm expecting to have a little less, more adventure :) So is your selection of sawed offs about right, or do you carry extra?
I kinda wish the fixed gear wasn't fixed and clogging up good placements. I'm a fan of getting rid of crap where possible.
Be Safe, Live Long, Climb Hard!

Rick

Offline Mike.

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2008, 08:35:17 pm »
Aye, lads...I dig the vibe here. No BS, no politics, no rampant egos, just climbing. Imagine that...



Rags, on those fixed RURPs, it really depends on the situation, I think. Sometimes that #1 cable rivet hanger or tiny head will work (I wouldn't hesitate to hero-loop-girth-hitch a head or swage where it can work). It's not silly to bring a loose length of small perlon or accessory cord, cuz you can wiggle it into little places a stiffer loop of cable won't go. Use a lighter to form sort of a sharp aglet at the tip, and that cord can really worm in there.

Really, nothing is sacred and sometimes the only limit to avoiding hammering or drilling is the imagination and materials. Let er rip!
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2008, 10:47:19 pm »
while back I told myself that the lack of gear shouldn't hold me back, and that I should make sure to have all possible reliable gear to make a clean ascent go, only my judgment on the use of gear should hold me back.  the trouble is that my judgment get's worse every year.  ;)


Offline Rags

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2008, 12:24:48 am »
You're a fine example :!
Be Safe, Live Long, Climb Hard!

Rick

Offline johnmac

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2008, 07:28:40 am »
This is a great thread ...

Zodiac clean solo is on my hit list to do but I'm a few years away. In the meantime there is plenty to keep me busy in Zion.

Looking forward to the TR later in the year also feedback on the rack. Looks like I've got some serious scavenging to do!

 

Offline Garbonzo

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2008, 04:36:37 pm »
That section on p4 of the Trip was the crux I thought. I couldn't use any of the fixed rurps and ended up nailing 3 beaks in a row, two came out with my fingers.

You need super tiny cable to lace through most fixed rurp eyes, and something small to poke it through with. I was unsuccsesful after trying for a while.

When I went through there I was lucky, several buried beaks.  I just shook my head over the rurps, but luckil I didn't have to clip them.

I then used Ammon's advice and penjied like a crazy ban down the roof, zero pieces placed.  One rasberry though...

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2008, 11:08:11 pm »
You're a fine example :!

hahaha, not even close. I have to get up another wall to be able to be an example.  LOL!!  :)

Offline lunchbox

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2008, 11:43:14 pm »
funny story....

We were passing under Zodiac last summer on our way to the East buttress.  I stopped to check out the climbers in the gray circle when this guy starts wailing away at a pin that is by all rights, not going anywhere.  This goes on for more than five minutes with each blow of the hammer issuing the same hallow bottomed out sound.  I can only imagine how gripped this poor soul is.

Flash forward a couple of months and I"m leading up into the gray circle, just before nipple pitch and come to a sawed off angle that's sticking two inches out of the crack.  But it isn't really fixed cause I can pull it out by hand with absolutely no effort.  And I'm thinking, is this the same pin that poor guy was wailing on months ago?


Offline Mr.

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2008, 09:54:00 am »
thud, thud, thud, thud (snicker) thud, thud, thud, thud

No std length angles needed. fixed pins are now back in place on blk tower, grey circle. very, very little nailing.

thud, thud, thud, thud, jeez....

Offline tomtom

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2008, 04:39:16 pm »
(Reposted from Supertopo)

We climbed it  in Sept '06 clean except one stickclip move on the Alt p1 start (missing copperhead ?). We carried

2 beaks
2 sawed angles: 1 ea 3/4" and 1"
nuts: regular and offset
micronuts: Trango brassies and HB offsets
ballnuts: 1-3
WC Zeros: 1-6
Hybrid aliens: 2 ea blk/blu to yel/red
Cams: 2 ea 0.5-4 C4 Camalot
2 ea #5 WC Tech Friend
hooks: 2 ea bat to 2" (inc pointed)
Cam Hooks
12 rivet hangers
A selection of pins and heads which stayed in the bag.

The pointed Leeper hook was used on bathook holes on the Alt p1.

I hand placed the sawed off pitons on a number of pitches, including above the Black Tower.

The last bit of p8 was pretty entertaining. A beak move, a fixed rurp, a few fixed copperheads, a hook or two and some other thin gear.

There were only four fixed pieces on the Nipple traverse: two fixed pins above the bolts, a fixed ball nut, and a fixed HB offset (yellow) along the length.

We had and used 2 #4 C4s and 2 #5 tech friends on pitch 14, leapfrogging them in pairs (stand on the upper one, clip the rope to the lower one).

The route is starting to collect gear again and one can climb without hammering pitons. This was our first El Cap route.

Offline Rags

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2008, 01:40:31 pm »
Great Beta  TomTom,

that was Sept' 06? I'd think that a lot of that gear may be in tatters by now. I'd also guess there is more than enough new fixed gear right next to the old stuff :(

Thanx for the info on sawed offs, I was still wondering how many & size.

Anything you carried that you didn't need, or could have left on the ground?

I hate carrying unnecessary gear almost as much as too little.
Be Safe, Live Long, Climb Hard!

Rick

Offline tomtom

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2008, 02:26:40 pm »
Now that I'm thinking about it (always dangerous), I think we had 2 ea of the sawed offs.  That was my first time using them, and I used them for progression, not protection (i.e. place, stand on, move on, retrieve).  In some placements they worked better than the appropriate offset alien.

The rack we used was pretty much the supertopo rack without the pins.  The smallest WC Zeros may not have been necessary, but I have them and typically use them.  There was a fixed #1 Zero on route which had a broken trigger wire.


Offline mungeclimber

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2008, 03:04:22 pm »
is there cases where a sawed off angle hand placed would be better than a cam hook of the right size?


Offline Raaf

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2008, 03:55:24 pm »
There was one place halfway up p.1 where I used (and left for pro) a sawed-off. And I was definitely more focused on finding good cam hook placements.

Couldn't say about the rest of the route. . . . . we stopped at the top of p.2.


Offline mungeclimber

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2008, 05:11:35 pm »
hand placed and left for pro?

Offline Raaf

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2008, 05:38:17 pm »
It was good enough to stand up on. . . . so leaving it in place was a mental boost at least. The placement was a bit shallow but if you get the size right then it almost seemed like a decent nut placement.

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: New thread: Zodiac clean
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2008, 11:35:37 pm »
oh I get it, not like as in 'left as a fixed pin type pro'

i got confused there. 

heh, take that puppy with you!