Author Topic: Metolius Master Cam reveiw (cross post)  (Read 4683 times)

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Offline johnmac

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Metolius Master Cam reveiw (cross post)
« on: April 07, 2008, 07:49:36 am »

Offline offset

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Re: Metolius Master Cam reveiw (cross post)
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2008, 11:50:30 am »
thanks for the post...

i got out and used mine for the second time this weekend...and was the 1st time aiding on them.    i'd add to one of the points made in the review -  that the thinner lobes don't seem to be an issue.  well, i was on kingfisher and placed a master cam and slowly weighted it and saw the cam lobes continue to expand as though it was digging into the 'rock'.  so i took it out and place a similarly sized C4 and it was solid. 

i realize this is one instance and evidence that different cams work in different locations...but wanted to add to the review and comment process yadda yadda yadda...


Offline johnmac

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Re: Metolius Master Cam reveiw (cross post)
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2008, 12:24:15 pm »
Good point about the thiner cams...

Offline Rags

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Re: Metolius Master Cam reveiw (cross post)
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2008, 02:19:14 pm »
Thanx for the link John,

I'm a fan of Metolius, always have been. I have seen only the prototype and never got to climb with it.
That is a decent review, but Metolius does have an issue with product production and release. I'm still waiting for the other two Supercams.

Quote
the thinner lobes don't seem to be an issue.  well, i was on kingfisher and placed a master cam and slowly weighted it and saw the cam lobes continue to expand as though it was digging into the 'rock'

Ya, that's pretty subjective, but I think it raises an issue. There is a real absence of understanding the relation between lobe size/hold power/cam angle/range.
I find it interesting (and disconcerting) that most reviews are focused on the subjective perceptions rather than the physical properties of cam function.

For example, the author talks about "cam walk" and offers that it is the result of short slings. That may be one factor, but it certainly isn't all. Point is most reviews are lacking in tangible information.

It seems to me that most climbers aren't interested in the more crucial aspects of cam function, but would prefer to rely on what other "good" climbers think is best. Someone on Mnt Proj. referred to a "great climber" and said " if he thinks aliens are the best that''s good enough for me". I have yet to figure out how being a good climber translates to a comprehensive understanding of cam function.

An real understanding of design considerations illuminates some reasons behind cam design, and what's good and bad.
Understanding these considerations also demonstrates how some major manufacturers are playing a statistical game with our safety.
When it comes to balancing safety with function, Metolius is the best.
Be Safe, Live Long, Climb Hard!

Rick

Offline offset

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Re: Metolius Master Cam reveiw (cross post)
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2008, 03:42:37 pm »
not sure how it is subjective.   it was real life example of P/A, which is the result of the physical properties of the max cams.

also shows that one cam isn't the overall best.  all (most) have their place and their use.  for each situation there is a 'best'.

i totally agree on the blind following of big name endorsements tho. 

Offline Garbonzo

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Re: Metolius Master Cam reveiw (cross post)
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2008, 05:42:43 pm »
"Holding Power" irks me.  It's used as if it was a real measure of something.  It is not.  Metolius claims that a smaller cam angle means more outward force (it does) which means your cams stays put better (not necessarily).

One of the plusses of aliens, which is also their durability downfall, is the soft lobes.  Wide soft lobes mold to the texture of the crack.  Narrow hard (7075 lobes of the master cam are pretty darn hard for aluminum) means more trenching and powdering of softer rock at lower forces.

Sorry to rant, but "holding power" does not have units, and is not a measure of anything, just a fancy way to say "smaller cam angle".  It pisses me off.  Higher "Holding Power" indicates "better", but it is simply not that simple, much more really has to be taken into account (including of course if your alien's head pops off...).

Offline Rags

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Re: Metolius Master Cam reveiw (cross post)
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2008, 07:19:49 pm »
You're right Garbonzo, we need to quantify that term into something tangible, as I have argued about with other aspects of cam reviews.

I would like to lay it out in a comprehensive manner so we are all talking about the same thing soon, as I have time.
However, let's also add that cam angle changes dynamic features of cam function in addition to static outward force.
I mean not to imply some expertise. I am simply very geeky when it comes to understanding design considerations of gear that is potentially the difference between life and death (mine).
In pursuit of information I have accumulated a reasonably good understanding of the things. But you are right, there are other factors to consider, and "hold power" is ambiguous.



P.S. Offset mentioned something about "subjective". Well when a reviewer says, "the cam felt solid", or "looked solid", or "placed easily", those are subjective perceptions on the part of the reviewer  or the person that happens to be using the cam... just perceptions. that's not to say that many opinions aren't valuable, as that wold be the formation of a consensus. We all agree the sun is bright, but how we describe that brightness varies. That creates variability, in the communication and interpretation. That's my criticism of gear reviews.
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Offline offset

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Re: Metolius Master Cam reveiw (cross post)
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2008, 07:35:45 pm »
the cam lobes moved outward as the piece was weighted  = objective

the cam lobes moved a lot as the piece was weighted  = subjective

the cam lobes are thin  = subjective

the cam lobes are thinner than the C4 lobes = objective


objective doesn't work so well with the general public.  readers want feeling and editors want fancy writing.  putting in the techno stuff in a magazine review would have people's head spin.  it's a shame, but a fact of life and the curse of living in a world were everyone else isn't an engineer. 

"holding power" does not have units, and is not a measure of anything, just a fancy way to say "smaller cam angle".

exactly my point...  "holding power" sounds strong and impressive and is objective...while "smaller cam angle" sounds wimpy and weak but is objective

Offline alpinist63

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Re: Metolius Master Cam reveiw (cross post)
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2008, 10:15:20 am »
i bought 3 mastercams because i like the design of aliens and am very happy with the durability of metolius tricams. on the first day climbing with the new cams, the little black cord pulling the cams became undone, so one of the cams was impossible to move. i got the mastercam exchanged at the shop but the next day, the same thing happened with one of the other mastercams.....so there seems to be a problem with this feature: the cord is not fixed with a knot, but just put through 2 holes and the end is burnt. ( we did just a freeclimbing route, so no special abuse like multipitch aid). Has anyone had the same thing happening??
special mention must go to desert rock sport, the shop in las vegas: when i showed up with the second mastercam broken, they offered me to take back all 3 mastercams and to have me chose 3 other cams! excellent!!!
so now i'm with 3 more aliens on my rack and they work fine.

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Metolius Master Cam reveiw (cross post)
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2008, 10:53:56 am »
i saw those at the mountain shop in the Valley, and was wondering about that 'cord' thing. Thx for posting up.  First gen product is always a tough one.

Offline offset

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Re: Metolius Master Cam reveiw (cross post)
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2008, 11:00:35 am »
doh!  sorry to hear 'bout the lemons.

i logged ~ 9 pitches of aid last weekend and used them quite a bit.  i didn't have any problems with them at all... 

Offline Rags

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Re: Metolius Master Cam reveiw (cross post)
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2008, 01:16:15 pm »
Alpinist, you should send an email to Metolius. I think they wouldl ike to hear about the failures.

I have a supercam with the similar setup, but have had no problems.
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Offline alpinist63

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Re: Metolius Master Cam reveiw (cross post)
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2008, 01:49:26 am »
right, i'll send a mail to metolius, i think this cord-problem would be fairly easy to solve for them. and that would be  great as the mastercams just work great otherwise.

Offline lunchbox

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Re: Metolius Master Cam reveiw (cross post)
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2008, 11:26:41 am »
We just got our shipment of Master Cams a few days ago.  All the cam's cord's are glued down nicely where they pass thur the lobes, but seem to be weak point of their design.
 
Does anyone know what type of cord Metolius is using?  I've heard its Kevlar, but have yet to confirm this.

I wonder why they aren't using wire like everyone else.     

Offline Rags

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Re: Metolius Master Cam reveiw (cross post)
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2008, 12:58:03 pm »
I am told that is correct (from a horse's mouth). It's kevlar.
Same stuff they use on super cam triggers.

edit: This reminded me about a question I had for them. Kevlar is highly susceptible to UV degradation.

We spend a lot of time in the sun. I think the kevlar is protected. It's not a color that I've seen before.

I asked them for info on it. I'll let you know what they say.

edit:

They already responded. Here's a cpoy of the document they sent me.

Quote
Metolius Master Cam and Super Cam trigger wire Technora


The core material of the cable is Technora, 1500 deniers (1.5mm) T221.
Since Technora does not do well if exposed to ultraviolet radiation the Technora core is covered by a sheath of Polyester 550 dtex.

Characteristic of Technora:

1. Tensile strength: 28 g/denier, that is 8 times stronger than steel, 3 times stronger than fiberglass, polyester and nylon of the same weight.

2. Fatigue resistance:  High tenacity fibers generally show a loss of strength against repeated abrasion, flexure and stretch. Technora has excellent fatigue resistance compared to other high tenacity fibers.

3. Dimensional stability: Technora has a highly oriented molecular structure. This leads to a high modulus, low creep and low stress relaxation.

4. Heat resistance: Technora has a heat decomposition temperature of 500C. It can be used at 200C for long periods of time.
It remains more than half is tensile strength at 250C, if compared to measured room temperature.

5. Chemical resistance: Technora exhibits high resistance to acids, alkalis and organic solvents. Even sea-water and steam show little impact on Technora. 

Applications:

High tenacity fibers such as Kevlar and Technora are used in a wide range of extreme applications. These applications include:

- Bullet proof vests
- Ocean floor cables
- Aerospace engineering
- High tensile strength light weight ropes and cordage to be used under extreme conditions.
- Metolius MasterCam and SuperCam


Why did Metolius choose to use this material?

Clearly there is no other material that is so versatile, durable and practical for climbing equipment that will be exposed to temperature differences,

abrasion, water (even salt water).

Due to Technora high resistance to chemicals, cam cleaners and mild soap will not harm the product.

MS

Sounds like good stuff
« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 02:12:30 pm by Rags »
Be Safe, Live Long, Climb Hard!

Rick