Author Topic: less corroding fixed pro  (Read 2457 times)

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Offline dirtineye

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less corroding fixed pro
« on: April 12, 2006, 08:30:41 am »
I posted this on stupid tacos, with less than stellar replies.  We'll see what happenes here.



It would be expensive, but maybe soft Monel combined with stainless cable would be a beter material than anything else for beaten in fixed gear.

I've thought of trying to use Monel in one of it's softer incarnations for hammered in fixed pro on a particular free climb I am working on, that stays wet most of the time, anyone know anything at all about this?

Monel is a nickle copper alloy that is expensive, but might be the perfect thing to use with stainless steel cable for a more permanent corosion resistant kind of fixed pro. I checked, and the galvanics of SS and Monel are very similar.

I was going to try to develop this idea, but since I'm probably going to have a much shorter life that I used to think, I'm throwing the idea out to you guys.

************************************
And later on ...

OK, as lois would say, I am about to go labile on yer @$$es.

Look, YOU CAN'T USE aluminum or copper with stainless steel, cause that sets up a battery charging station, that will corrode like crazy.

Monel and stainless on the other hand, are about the same in terms of electro-potential. that mean, they will not set up a current at the drop of a hat in the presence of ions, the way aluminum and stainless will.

When you guys complain about copper and steel heads screwing up, THINK OF THIS THREAD.

Monel comes in three grades that I can find, from softer to harder.

There are no swages or anything like what you'd need made of monel at this point, at least, I can't find em. Someone would haveto figure out how to make the fittings out of sheet Monel or barstock if there is such a thing, or something.

20 bucks a pop? I doubt it. I could make this stuff myself if I wanted to. I've done this sort of thing before. A science and math education is a dangerous thing if you ahve a little mechanical aptitude and a brain, and some creativity and I've got all that, I'm just lazy and don't care about aid much.

And I'm out of time.

what you need is a few basic machine tools. A serious jweler woudl ahve some of them. A hobbymachinsst would have way more than waht you need.

A little aneeling and some shaping and you would have your monel heading sleeves.

Sure to make the first few would cost, but if it worked, you'd hvae the perfect fixed gear for those crap placements.

There might be other materials besides Monel that are available, I have no idea, I DON'T DO AID, so I have not looked.

But I'll tell you this:

I sure as hell would get me some Monel bar and hand mill it and silver solder an SS cable into it and try the fvcker out, if I gave a shyte about fixed gear lasting on aids routes.

All you need to start is a drill press, MAYBE a machinist's hand book, a file and some way to heat treat ( frying pan and motor oil plus hot plate will work for some applications) and then for the silver soldering you could do that OR make yourself a nico pres sleeve out of some Monel. IT ain't rocket science.

********************************8
Still later...

For a trade route with breakage from primarily fraying, obviously corrosion is not the problem.

I have one route in particular that would seldom get any traffic, and it is not an aids route anyway, it's a free route, so there woudl not be a lot of rubbing and fraying, but there would be a lot of water.

IT's not cheap, so what? It's not for every placement out there, that was never the intent.

I'm trying to solve a specific problem of corroded heads that fail, not frayed ones.

And if your heads are braking where the rust is, I'd think you'd be paying attention.


*************************************
And then someone had an idea....

Monel is a little on the expensive side.

Flat plate, 0.078 by 12 inch by 12 inch is $120.33

Round Stock is a little better. 1/4 Diameter by 4 feet is $19.27. 3/8 Diameter by 4 feet is $42.76. 1/2 by 4 feet is $70.47.

Compare this with 1/8 inch copper swages that are 0.24 cents each. That's completely machined and ready to use. Not billet metal that requires machining and deburring.

I think it's a little much to ask price wise. Why not use stainless cable and tin or zinc plated swages?

Has anybody worked with Monel? I don't think it is as malleable as Aluminum or Copper but I could be wrong.

Dirt: What was the hardness of the alloys you found?

When you silver solder you heat the part up. This can lead to heat treating it slightly and increasing the hardness. I don't think that would be good for something you want to stay malleable. I think it would need to be swaged.

"and some way to heat treat ( frying pan and motor oil plus hot plate will work for some applications)"

Mmmmmm...frying motor oil smells good.;)

I use it to cool oil hardening steels. Smokes like its gonna go sky high when you drop a red hot part into it.

I want to see Russ lead on lead too! I'll make the lead heads if I get to watch Russ lead and Dirt belay.

Not many answers just more questions.

***********************************************

T Moses, the short answer is, I don't remember.

I looked at a lot of sites for Monel, I know thereare different hardnesses, and at least three alloys, and there was a page with workability, but I'd have to dig it up again.

The price IS a pain. This stuff has fallen from favor, and scarcity made the price go up. I think it was cheaper 50 or more years ago.

there might be another metal.

A search through the Handbook of physics n chemistry or a machinissts handbook might reveal something better.

On the other hand, I bet a copper nickle alloy with 5% nickel or less would be a good place to start, if you had a way to produce it and make swages.

My guess is that it is the nickel that makes the difference in corrosion resistance AND the similarities between alloys regarding galvanics.

*************************************************

So, it's a start.

How about some of you guys who don't like corroded copperheads and rusty cables looking into this?
French free is aid climbing too, I swear.

Offline syrinx

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less corroding fixed pro
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2006, 08:55:59 pm »
Seems cheaper and a lot less of a PITA to just put a regular head in, and replace it when needed. Also, you say you do not aid climb, but want to use copperheads to protect a wet free climb? Would you place them on lead? Seems like they would pull easy from a fall.

Syrinx
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Offline fareastclimber

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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2006, 04:23:56 am »
Haha! Man, I still don't know when you received so few replies for your novel question.

Offline dirtineye

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« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2006, 07:33:29 pm »
Maybe when someone with a clue responds I'll have something to say.

As for me aids climbing, I may hate it, but I can do it, can you?



That's an FA.  Got one?
French free is aid climbing too, I swear.

Offline mungeclimber

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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2006, 10:53:13 pm »
sandstone?

Offline dirtineye

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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2006, 11:48:49 am »
Quote from: mungeclimber
sandstone?


Yes, and hard as nails.  NOT like yer desert pie crust, hehe. Note that is was only partially aided ( much of it went free anyway) because it was really, really dirty, every placement had to be dug out except for the jolly green cam and slinging "w" (that bush), and becasue I am a whimp, and weak.

there is also a mandatory short (thank god) free hanging aid section on P1, unless you climb 5.14(?) or so.

The spot I want to put the anti-corroding stuff is even harder than this in the pic.
French free is aid climbing too, I swear.

Offline fareastclimber

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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2006, 12:23:17 pm »
Dirtineye - not sure if those comments were directed at me. Anyway, was just making a comment, not meaning to be snide at all man...

Offline dirtineye

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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2006, 12:34:03 pm »
Nay fareasterner, not at you.

And I meant that the rock in the water area is even harder than the sandstone in the pic, and BTW, what goes in the strange placement would be more like a soft #3 ballnut in overall shape, than a copperhead.
French free is aid climbing too, I swear.

Offline caribouman

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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2006, 08:52:44 pm »
don't know if you have found your corrosion-less solution... some thoughts:

- You could try:  Going to a jewelery supply shop and purchasing the equipment you'd need to cast your own specialty heads- mold rubber, some green or red wax to make the mold positve, and then maybe a bucket load of silver solder.  You might?  be able to make a head out of silver solder, which is very corrosion resistant, and just maybe, is soft enough for heading.    

- The conundrum is:  high tensile strength to take a fall load means the cable will be pretty hard material, while heading requires malleability, aka softness.    the reality may be that these some opposite needs means that you need two metals which are farther apart on the galvanic scale.  Thus, you might be better off using a stainless cable bedded in epoxy.  Which, if you can get some powdered sandstone to mix with the epoxy, would give you a pretty primo bond.  I recommend you read Deuce's article about bolts (not in Forum, but on the home page) because there was something in there about using polyester resins as opposed to epoxies for bedding steel into rock.

- The bottom line, wether you use custom-made or copper heads, is that the bond is extremely dependent on having clean rock.  If you really want that sucker to stick, maybe a little windex isn't unreasonable.

- you mentioned the rock is usually wet.  Perhaps a water-catalyzed polyurethane glue is the way to go, something like the wood worker's Gorilla Glue.  

-Look into marine supplies:  there are adhesive caulking/glues that can be used underwater....

good luck, very interesting problem, please post back with your solution.  I live (and climb) in a marine environment, and need to resolve these questions too.
                                 Caribouman
when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.