Author Topic: Securing the Hual Bag  (Read 2558 times)

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Offline hoipolloi

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Securing the Hual Bag
« on: February 26, 2009, 12:53:37 pm »
How do you do it?  PTPP says its dumb to clip it directly to the anchor, because of the bitch of unclipping it.  Experienced that..  He says to use cordalette and a releasable knot (muntner).  Anyone havea photo of how you might secure your pig to the anchor for easy releasing?  Im just trying to get a more clear idea on what this looks like.


With a partner, they can haul it up off the anchor, making unclipping easy.  When solo, would you just release the knot and let it drop a little onto the haul line and (upper) anchor?


just trying to make clearer images in my mind (and ones that are better than the work I should be doing.  Since I cant do it right now, might as well ponder it and play with it later..)

Offline offset

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Re: Securing the Hual Bag
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2009, 01:02:01 pm »
munter mule... always!!   i always have some amount of a lower out line so i just tie the pigs off w/ the munter mule in the lower out line.   

Offline Baltoro

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Re: Securing the Hual Bag
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2009, 02:51:59 pm »
While I think the Munter Mule is the way to go I've used another method that I like.

I use a spare grigri.

I'll have a "hard line" tether that goes direct from the bag to the powerpoint but that is slack (just barely). Then I use the grigri on the tail of the haul line. This allows you to adjust the height of the bag super easy as well as lower it out nice and smooth. Just make sure you undo the "hard line" tether.

I solo more often than not so I like having a spare grigri along as it's kind of important. Yeah you can do without it but it's easier for me to use that.
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Offline mungeclimber

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Re: Securing the Hual Bag
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2009, 12:01:47 am »
pics?



Offline marde

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Re: Securing the Hual Bag
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2009, 07:03:19 am »
...With a partner, they can haul it up off the anchor, making unclipping easy...
That's only true for pitches going up really straight.
I don't know any better system than the munter mule; easy to tie and to release, no device needed
can be done with the lowerout line or the haul lines' tail (I use a lowerout line for that)

but sorry no pics


Offline Mike.

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Re: Securing the Hual Bag
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2009, 08:31:36 am »
Load release system: Mandatrory on camping walls.

I got tired of the shoulder burn and time spent tying M?nter mules--been using a dedicated adjustable daisy on each bag:

Rigged in series: Bag > locker with adjustable daisy > swivel > locker with haul line plus separate 8mm let-out line. Other options no doubt exist. I've used lower attachment points on the bag to facilitate bag content access on light-ish loads (yes! loose suspension straps at the belay).

Back up the daisy with haul line when docking. When releasing, lower with free let-out. Can use a pear/M?nter, ATC, Gri, etc to lower. Set the daisy buckle so its release button faces the wall to minimize accidental release. Make sure top biner doesn't cross load during weighting.

If bringing the kitchen sink already, an extra daisy per bag will have you laughing at the dock/release antics of yore. More so solo. I've used this method on push walls as well.

The dedicated Gri method is cool, but I've never used it fully. I usually have two bags, so for me that would be too many Gris.

Cheers.
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Offline johnmac

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Re: Securing the Hual Bag
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2009, 12:20:30 pm »
I do pretty much the same as Mike states above.

I use a Fish adjustable daisy that I brought but never worked well as an adjustable so I'ts on the haul bag. The buckle is the same as the Yates. I then back it up with the haul line. The Munter hitch works fine but the ad Daisy is much faster.


Offline hoipolloi

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Re: Securing the Hual Bag
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2009, 11:50:39 am »
Ok, I really like the adjustable daisy idea. sounds quick and simple.

Now, one more question.  As Marde pointed out, cant haul the bag off the anchor if the pitch has any traversing.

Can someone clarify the tactic here?  You have your bag anchored > put it 'on belay' for lower out > release daisy putting weight on lower out line > unclip daisy, bag now entirely on lower out line >  commence lower out / haul

right?

Offline Mike.

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Re: Securing the Hual Bag
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2009, 12:02:52 pm »
Yep!
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline xtrmecat

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Re: Securing the Hual Bag
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2009, 10:57:15 am »
Here's what I do. I've got a loop of 5mm chord through both top pig straps that make a look about four foot long. When the pig arrives at the top of the haul, i already have a docking locker ready. I pull the docking tether through the biner and lift all the slack out, and if on a ledge try to hoist the pig as high as I can easily do so, and then procede to take the tether and tie a muenter, and then dog the loose end of it off and add a biner to this in any manner that it cannot come untied, and this is important. Then I disassemble the haul and am ready for any of the other tasks at hand. When launching the pig I just pull and rack the lockoff biner, and lower the pig with the tether, and if not traversing I tie this tether up with a contractors coil as to not drag it against the bag during the next haul. If it is traversing, I lower off the biner until all the weight is on the overhead haul line, and use the tail of lower out line to let the peig go into space. Simple, cheap, can be used for many pitches before worn through, and all the components can and are used for other things in a pinch, as in the cord make a backup to tat slings left at rap stations, etc..
  I even use this system on my fish pig, that comes with an adjustable docking pig, mostly due to I don't vary from what works well out of habit.
     Bob

Offline Mike.

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Re: Securing the Hual Bag
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2009, 11:23:28 am »
bob,

No backup to the dock?

How does that cordage work through offset suspension straps? Probably puts more tension on the short one and negates the option of unclipping that short one for better bag access. Gotta have a keylock biner on that short strap and be able to release it, IMO. Pretty sure every major mfr uses offset straps these days. Also, I'm mildly diced on having that thin perlon against a nylon strap with potentially 170 lb load. Don't want extra wear there at all; haul bags tend to last a long time these days.

I'd just M?nter mule the let-out line. Why have an extra piece of gear (the loop) that does the same thing as your let-out line? Oh, you already answered that: "habit"
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Offline Garbonzo

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Re: Securing the Hual Bag
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2009, 12:26:06 pm »
I generally use a tether and no lower out line.  I guess if I'm expecting long pitches with lots of traversing I'd bring a lower out line, but ever since my first wall where my 50' one got dropped I haven't bothered.

For me:

1.  Haul bags.
2.  Munter Mule the tether into locker on the hauling anchor since it's usually off to one side.  Tether is rigged into the bottom of the swivel, and when I have 2 bags (most trips) is dangles in between and doesn't get abraded or snagged (so far anyway...).  I use an old but in good shape 7mm cordallete doubled over and tied in an overhand as my tether.
3.  Hauler is released so the bags are on the tether, and torn down.
4.  Haul knot is undone and retied near the end (if it was tied for lower out on the previous pitch).
5.  Backup knot (fig 8 on a bight) is tied into the haul line on the short side of the haul line and clipped into the main anchor.  If the hauler gets ahead of things and gets the line tight, it's easier to untie the backup knot if it's on the short side of the line.

Follow cleans, pitch is lead.

1.  Leader calls haul line fixed (I agree on the ground that means the rope is through the device ready to go, but leader is not ready to haul necessarily, leader only pulls the slack needed for getting ready to haul).
2.  Follower decides if a lower out is necessary, and if needed a haul knot is tied in the middle of the rope after sliding the bottle top up, and swapped into place for the original knot in the locker on top the swivel.  Original haul knot is untied.
3.  The backup knot is untied, and the rope looped through that biner, and down to the belay device.  If it's a gentle traverse I often just hand over hand it, or tie a munter in the loose tail, it all depends.
4.  Communication happens so that the leader at the least cinches up the slack by hand, or if he's ready to haul, he can tension things up.
5.  Mule knot is untied, and the munter is fed out until the belay device takes the tension (unless it's near vertical and the bags are just cut loose with no belay).
6.  Leader hauls, and repeat.

  Usually if I'm following I can get all the knots worked out as soon as the leader hits the next belay, leaving ~10' of slack for him to work with, so all the screwing around happens while the leader is building the anchor.  By time the leader hits the anchor I try and have the bags all closed up with whatever I can stuff in the top already broken down.

  If communication is bad, then the standing agreement is that the leader may not pull up the slack until it's through the hauler and ready for the bags' weight.  The leader is to apply modest tension, then wait for the bags to come onto the anchor before hauling (lest you hose the follower who is flailing to untie something under full tension.

My $0.02.  It's hard to capture the variations that occur pitch by pitch as you adjust things to changing situations (rope stretcher pitches, big traverse, no traverse, traverse into air, etc).

Offline xtrmecat

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Re: Securing the Hual Bag
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2009, 04:25:34 pm »
Mike, yes, I forgot to include a backup eight in the haul line before I set out to do the other tasks. I just looked at the haul loops on both of my most worn bags and there is no where from the cordage. Yes they are sometimes hard to access, but I usually only need lunch, water, or the obscure article of clothing stashed or taken out.

Offline hoipolloi

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Re: Securing the Hual Bag
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2009, 06:11:20 pm »
I played around with a few things, set it all up, tested out some stuff.  Totally cleared it up for me.  Thanks guys.