Author Topic: New way to do a adjustable daisy...  (Read 6776 times)

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Offline Caz

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New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« on: June 25, 2009, 12:50:07 am »
Seems that Kate is trying a new daisy system. This is what she say's about it quoted from this ST thread

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=881807&tn=0



Hey Guys:

The Ushba basic is rigged to the biner that holds the aider and is clipped into the piece.

There is an 8.1 mil Ice Floss Twin lead line (Sterling) about 5 feet long attached to the belay loop and leg loop, threaded up through the waist loop, like a fifi would be. You tie a stopper knot in the end of this which serves as a nice grab handle and prevents you from flying off the end if you screw up somehow.

The benefits are:
* You no longer need a fifi, as you can get as close to the aider biner as you want.
* You no longer have to deal with a twisted daisy, as the rope is round.
* If you rig them (or any daisy system, for that matter) to a swivel, you no longer have to worry about them twisting around one another. I did this with my regular daisies and it was sweet. This can put you further from your piece if you don't do it in a particular way.
* The Ice Floss is more dynamic than nylon webbing.
* There is no friction from a spring-loaded buckle, so pulling the cord through is easier than an adjustable daisy
* The release mechanism is not spring loaded and there is next to no friction, so it is easy to release and extend them with one hand
The rope is field-replaceable, unlike the strap on adjustable daisies. I hang my ledge and a few and some other stuff from extra Ice Floss. This way, if the sheath wears out or the daisy-rope gets damaged in any way, I just switch it out.
* The Ushba serves as a backup ascender in case you drop one when soloing, can be used as a backup when cleaning, and can be used as part of the hauling system if you so choose. So its more versatile than an adjustable daisy, all around.
* You can perfectly customize the length to suit you. I make mine a little long.

The risks are:
* The ushba can bind on the spine of the biner if you were to take a brief daisy fall, and this must be actively managed, but isn't too much of a pain. This is significant if you use the titanium one, as titanium is more brittle. Had I realized that I would eventually use these for this purpose, I would not have purchased the titanium ones.
* The ushba has a curved radius on the camming device, but it is possible that it could sever the rope-daisy in a hard fall. This is why we clip the rope in before passing a piece, though, and I still trust this device as much as the buckles on an adjustable daisy, which can also sever the rope.

I never climbed with adjustable daisies because I would get the strap twisted, hated that I couldnt get close enough to the piece and still needed to fifi in all of the time. I also didn't like that the buckle spring tension and friction took a toll on my hands after awhile.

The USHBA titanium are $100 online, add tax and you get to $110 or somesuch. Non-titanium are less by like $20. I bought mine for minitraxioning on ice, so I bought them at the gear shop in Ouray, which runs a bit of a markup.

I've considered the wild country ropeman, too. The ones I have are toothed but they make one with ridges that might be better.

The problem with the ropemen is that it takes two hands and some suffering to extend them back out after cinching them up. With the Ushba, you just touch the camming device with your finger and extend. Much easier.

Keep in mind that I screw around with systems for my own entertainment and never meant to say this was a good idea for anyone else. Next year I'll probably be using a system of Q-tips and tire irons instead. Who knows.

-Kate.






What do you think? I'm gonna try it out with something I just saw from Kong. Don't know the name of the device but I'll post pics when I get a chance. Check out the cross post I linked and read from Pete's post at the top of the page...


Zac
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Offline Caz

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2009, 12:54:48 am »
I found a pic on the web...




you can use it on webbing too... I'll post the pics I took of it to show the size better.
ZAc
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Offline Mike.

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2009, 09:05:37 am »
Never perceived a need for hauling myself up every piece, doubly so with Moof cuffs. No adjustables on lead for me. If I needed that capability I'd float one.

Using dynamic line for a daisy sounds like a cool idea.

Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline johnmac

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2009, 10:36:16 am »
I really would need to see this is action before I would want to go out and spend money and try it.

I'm still using my legs to stand up rather than pulilng myself up on adjustable daisies. Maybe I'm slow but I just don't see the need. Up to c3 I don't even use daises, just have two wall ladders floating. C3 or harder then I use one traditional daisy and one adjustable. The adjustable is part of my jugging set up so it is used for other things as well.

Sometimes I think we tend to make aid climbing a lot more complicated then it needs to be.

Maybe Pete or Kate will post up some pics from their climb on el cap this week and it might change my mind and I'll finally get it.


Offline hoipolloi

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2009, 05:40:07 pm »
I think I understand what she is saying.  Sounds pretty cool, can anyone think of any way to get 1 rigged with a fifi on it?  I don't like the thought of having adjustables on each aider, I have tried that and find it to be tedious.

(I have said before) I use 1 adjustable that I put a fifi onto, but all her cons about the adjustables are very true.  I wonder if I could use rig something like this onto a fifi, an ushba fifi.  could be cool, maybe clunky and expensive though.  Maybe that kong rig or or a ropeman could work.

gotta borrow one and play with the idea.

skully

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2009, 05:56:03 pm »
Damn, everyone's just so dang clever.......I'm still sportin' plain ol' daisies.
I must be retro, or somethin'. Maybe just slow.
Oh well.
The only customization is a girthed loop at the end, for wear.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 07:26:57 am by skully »

Offline KevinW

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2009, 06:10:57 am »
I'm with you on this one skully, keep'n it simple.

Offline lunchbox

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2009, 06:30:45 pm »
damn, and I thought I already had a phd in complicated shit.....

A daisy and fifi hook was enough to establish most, if not all of these routes......

Offline Caz

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2009, 02:20:34 pm »
They were established with all pin racks too but we've moved on from that. I'm just looking for a new way to do the adjustable daisy after I took a bad static daisy fall and racked my ribs. I figured using a dynamic rope would make it a bit safer, and there would be less of a chance to pop the piece you fall on.There are a ton of ways to climb a wall and this is one of them.

Zac
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Offline lunchbox

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2009, 06:33:44 pm »
Sorry Caz, I'm not trying to flame anyone here.  Kate is at the pinnacle of hard aid climbing and I certainly value everyone's contributions to this great community here. 
 
I don't want to drift too far off topic, but this is what I've done to mitigate damage caused by daisy chain falls.  It will result in a blown out aider with limited functionality but acts as a built in screamer.  The aider is easy repaired with heavy duty tread and needle or an industrial sewing machine after the fact.  So far it has prevented injuries in the 4 daisy chain falls my partners and I have taken over the years. 

I clip my daisy chain into the top loop of my aider so that it rests on the bar tacks that hold it all together.  A fall will result in stripped bar tacks but the tacks are strong enough for daisy chain testing and general moving up.
 

 

skully

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2009, 07:47:23 pm »
Oh, Dude, I like that a LOT.....That's simple, but dependable, once.
Once is all it takes, sometimes.

Offline Garbonzo

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2009, 09:59:26 pm »
I guess i just try and prevent daisy falls in the first place.  I don't let out the slack on my lower piece until I have first clipped the rope into the lower piece, and then unclipped my daisy.  Then and only then do extend it out and stow it.  My $0.02.

Offline *Mucci*

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2009, 10:07:23 pm »
I just moved to adjustable daisies, took a while to get the system down but if you work on it you can minimize the cluster FU**.  Definately sped my progression up a notch.  AS to a fall, be sure to clip your daisy on the gate side of the biner, if you get to a piece that is iffy, unclip the daisy from the peice your standing on, booyah instant dynamic action via the rope!  saved me a few times and catches like a marshmallow.  

The problem with adj daisies is people tend to yard themselves up on them, not good for moderate to hard aid.  stand up then pull in the slack all in one fluid movement.  AS kate said, her system is not meant to replace technique.

Try it all out and do what you think is best.  A few falls on the tower is a good start, bet you wont make those mistakes agian!

Good luck to you in the future!
Mucci

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2009, 10:14:06 pm »
Quote
not good for moderate to hard aid

Mucci,

what's the thinking about risk here?  just the risk of daisy fall since it's harder in general, or is there something else about the way it works that causes some risk?

Offline *Mucci*

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2009, 10:46:51 pm »
I meant that on the easy stuff you can yard as hard as you want without blowing the piece, on the hard stuff you try and move onto the piece as if YOU and Myself were 85 lbs when wet.  Thus not adding additional jerkoffing to the body wait piece.

The risk shows up on those tipped out beaks and 2 lobe offset alien placements right?
How have you been Mungy?  Its been a while, cant wait to crack one with ya and shoot the shizzle!

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2009, 10:54:17 pm »
werd man, you gotta come up. or maybe after work Castle Sesh if that's not too far. I used to do it from the city but it's kinda grim and determined approach.

ok, I follow you on the thought there.

my limited experience has been that I can use the adj daisies even more smoothly than I can a fifi and traditional daisy. even by yarding up on it (which I like since it's like helping my already wobbly legs).  I can usually balance the weight between the lower and new piece in a transition move that makes for very friendly hooking movement if the new piece is a hook. but it's taken awhile to get smoother with it and they were easy hook moves relatively speaking.

Offline *Mucci*

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2009, 11:01:18 pm »
YOUre right on the transition, I have seen some violent pulls to the piece that ended in whips. I guess if it's gonna pop may as well be jiffy pop!

Lets make a plan brother!  I am ready to spread the wings

Offline scottydo

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2009, 08:58:55 am »
I guess i just try and prevent daisy falls in the first place.  I don't let out the slack on my lower piece until I have first clipped the rope into the lower piece, and then unclipped my daisy.  Then and only then do extend it out and stow it.  My $0.02.

So is this what most people do (who use regular daisies) to prevent that dreaded daisy chain fall? (sorry if this is an obvious newbie question)

Offline lunchbox

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2009, 09:57:48 am »
scottydo

This is basic moving up strategy.  With traditional daisy / aider combo you stay fifi-ed into the lower piece as you test the new one.  Once satisfied that the new piece will hold clip the rope and begin the transfer as you un clip / un fifi from your the lower piece.

Timing is critical and dependent on the quality of your placements.  Clipping the piece your standing on prematurely can result in a longer fall if it pulls during the process.  And on easy aid it may not matter much at all.

IMO Solid testing technique and experience will go further to prevent a daisy chain fall than anything else will.

Offline lambone

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2009, 07:08:01 pm »
not really a new method, Pete use to use Wild Country Ropemans with 10mil lines for daisies.

although the 8mil w/Ushba sounds better.

maybe i'll try it.

Offline johnmac

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2009, 12:20:14 pm »
Has anyone seen an update or any photos of this yet?

Offline Caz

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2009, 02:08:28 pm »
I'll see if I can get either Kate or Pete to post up about it,
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Offline johnmac

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2009, 06:04:15 pm »
Thanks Caz.

Offline Caz

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2009, 11:24:41 pm »
Sorry Caz, I'm not trying to flame anyone here.  Kate is at the pinnacle of hard aid climbing and I certainly value everyone's contributions to this great community here. 
 
I don't want to drift too far off topic, but this is what I've done to mitigate damage caused by daisy chain falls.  It will result in a blown out aider with limited functionality but acts as a built in screamer.  The aider is easy repaired with heavy duty tread and needle or an industrial sewing machine after the fact.  So far it has prevented injuries in the 4 daisy chain falls my partners and I have taken over the years. 

I clip my daisy chain into the top loop of my aider so that it rests on the bar tacks that hold it all together.  A fall will result in stripped bar tacks but the tacks are strong enough for daisy chain testing and general moving up.
 

 


So I haven't been able to get in contact with Kate and feed back about how it worked out for her on Bad Seed but when I do I'll either get her to post up or let you all know what her input is about the system.

One question for you lunchbox. Do you ever feel that having your daisy lower on your piece effects you? like you can't get close to the pro when going over roofs and whatnot. I like to get close to my piece when moving my waist past it so I can put as little outward pressure on it. It may be different for you with traditional daisies, I use adjustables so sometimes that's a problem for me.


Zac
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Offline lunchbox

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2009, 10:11:29 am »
No problems getting in close, your fifi can go anywhere.  I generally avoid using the daisy chain pockets when leading cause they're small and harder to hook than the grab loop and biners.  I spend most of my time fifi'ed into that blue spirit biner.

Offline Caz

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Re: New way to do a adjustable daisy...
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2009, 07:16:48 pm »
Yeah, I figured it wouldn't be a issue using a fifi. It would be a pain in the a$$ while using adjustables...
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