Author Topic: lunar eclipse  (Read 5286 times)

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Offline lunchbox

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lunar eclipse
« on: October 16, 2009, 08:17:04 pm »
I know I know... post up about a climb your thinking of doing and then your doomed!

Just wanted to know if anyone has done Lunar Eclipse.  I remember talking to Nanook a couple of season ago and he said the rivets are pretty bad up there. 

Anyone have first hand knowledge?  Am I looking at machine heads or 1/4 split shaft?

Okay, I'm ready, let me have it.......

s

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2009, 12:35:19 am »
yer gunna live!

Offline hoipolloi

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2009, 12:47:57 am »
I won't go up there with ya!  That shit sounds scary!



...ok maybe I will...



don't worry, that shit is bomber, like bolts!


(Incase nobody has gleamed, I am ignorant about the quality of the rivets)

Offline lambone

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2009, 03:04:57 pm »
From safeclimbing.org

"Replaced 14 anchor bolts. Most bolted belays have 1-3 good 3/8" bolts. Poor anchor/lead bolts remain. 2001"

doubt much has changed.

Offline lunchbox

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2009, 12:23:40 am »
Thanks lambone, I was looking at that yesterday.  They have some funny ways to describe lead bolts and rivets. 

This is my favorite for Native Son "All lead rivets are the original machine heads... that are probably ok."

but Lunar's "Poor anchor/lead bolts remain."  doesn't sound half as bad as ZM's "Many of the protection bolts/rivets are very poor."

I'll take poor over very poor any day. 

Looks like we'll be packing!

Offline hoipolloi

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2009, 10:20:15 am »
conclusion:


Anchors sucked balls.

Anchors to the top of 7 now contain at least 2 good bolts each.

Anchors above said point still suck balls, but, hopefully will be better soon.

Lead bolts and rivets mostly suck balls (especially the rivets) but work.


more to come....
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 11:40:17 am by hoipolloi »

Offline lambone

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2009, 11:02:27 am »
nice work, thank you!

curious were you able to re-use the same holes?

would like to do that route..especially after the anchors are new!

Offline hoipolloi

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2009, 02:29:31 pm »
The anchors were very poor and we did our best to make them safe and avoid un-necressary drilling.  However there was some interesting shit up there...


so much respect for those of you that repair entire walls....my god!
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 12:07:13 am by hoipolloi »

Offline Caz

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2009, 03:39:18 pm »
Nice work hoipolloi!
I do this for fun...

Offline lambone

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2009, 06:01:26 pm »
nice dude!

Offline Mike.

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2009, 09:36:16 pm »
Drill first, ask later? Thanks for the good intentions and effort, but can that "highest standard" bullshit.
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline Mike.

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2009, 08:08:40 am »
Hoi, got your PM. No need for the conversation to be private. If you want to get emotional and cuss that's your bag. It's not mine.


1 Climb the route as is

2 Bail the route if it's too scary for you

3 Get in touch with Steve and/or John and talk about your intentions before the restoration


Any one of those options would have IMO constituted the highest standard. Seems pretty simple considering how omnipresent Steve is. Why is it a lengthy process to get in touch with him? There must be ten people on ST who can phone him anytime. Find out what those guys had in mind in terms of "safe" rather than imposing your own safety standards and creating them as you go. Can you be sure a couple of lead pieces were not used as anchor pieces? That the FA liked that challenge and wishes it to remain? Of course you don't know, because you drilled first and so far haven't asked. Most fully restored grade sixes don't get that way in an initial push. Think recon.

Sometimes people take matters into their own hands. Sometimes that's the only way something rather than nothing will get done. I'm not saying not to take initiative, but look at the details. Say you did just that and don't blow smoke up my ass about your sterling standards when you failed one of the tenets of Yosemite climbing.

Yea, one hole or whatever, NBD. It's not so much that hole, but broadcasting the notion that it doesn't really matter what the FA thinks and anybody who can climb somewhere is qualified and free to alter a route to his liking. Bad precedent.

Cheers.


« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 08:14:03 am by Mike. »
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline lambone

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2009, 09:05:17 am »
Quote
Yea, one hole or whatever, NBD. It's not so much that hole, but broadcasting the notion that it doesn't really matter what the FA thinks and anybody who can climb somewhere is qualified and free to alter a route to his liking. Bad precedent.
fwiw I never saw hoipolloi doing any of this^^^^

I concur that adding extra anchor bolts to a climb does change the character of the route, and I hate seeing anchors where successive/excessive extra anchor bolts were added...but if a bolt is there (especially anchors) it might as well be a good one, permission from FA'er or not.

imho

curious, was hardings permission obtained to turn WFLT into a nOOb superhighway, Royal's Prow? Porters Zod, T-Trip? or does this standard only count for hard routes? whats the ASCA standard protocol?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 09:28:31 am by lambone »

Offline hoipolloi

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2009, 10:00:32 am »

I am sorry you so strongly disagree with what we did, I thought we were using good, solid judgement, making responsible calls and doing the right thing in the right way.  Some other yosemite locals we talked to agreed that we did the right thing and appreciated it, people who have done the route, and seen the hardware.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 11:34:28 am by hoipolloi »

Offline lambone

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2009, 10:42:39 am »
It seems it would have been more of a bummer had we gone up there and replaced dozens of copper heads ...

huh? why?

Offline hoipolloi

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2009, 11:33:03 am »
I guess i mean in terms of hammering, deterioration to the rock, long term effects, etc.  A stupid point.






Edits:

I edited all my shit.  I just don't want to get involved in this whole debate/argument.  Sorry.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 11:38:23 am by hoipolloi »

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2009, 12:27:05 pm »
hrm, seems I missed something while I was away this weekend.


Offline Mike.

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2009, 09:35:59 am »
A pity you bailed on the conversation, Hoi. What is it with posting charged commentary then pulling it later? How do these people get along in real life? I was beginning to think you had some balls, now I'm not so sure.

Why so defensive? I said I appreciate the effort and intentions, and I didn't mean that backhandedly. I also said this: "Sometimes people take matters into their own hands. Sometimes that's the only way something rather than nothing will get done." Don't be sorry I pointed out what I think is an inconsistency. Why would you have sorrow over that? I made my points, you did too (from what I remember...).



lambone,

"was hardings permission obtained to turn WFLT into a nOOb superhighway, Royal's Prow? Porters Zod, T-Trip? or does this standard only count for hard routes? whats the ASCA standard protocol?"

You mean did everyone who climbed WFLT and subsequently broke many of the 1/8" Stardryvn nails ask Harding for permission to do the route? The route was Trade long before the bulk of rebolting was done. Many people spent many days replacing lead and belay bolts; credit for the route's HW status can go to no one group or individual. FWIW, I replaced Stardryvn bolts with hangers with 3/8" bolts with hangers so that a cheater stick was no longer part of the rack. Yes, we could have used 1/4", which would need replacing again in about 20 years from now. Ideal? Maybe not, but we tried to uphold the spirit of the route with bolts and hangers where same original gear existed previously. Did we replace a retro bolt? Possibly. Harding did not answer his phone the times I called. None of this is the pinnacle of ideal, but that's what it is.

I didn't work on those other routes you mention. Maybe Minerals can speak on the research he did before the spate of Zod work. I know he was very thorough. I'm not sure if he spoke with CP, but CP is not easy to get ahold of apparently. The Trip...it got the big steel treatment including fatties w/ hangers in place of original rivets some years ago. Thankfully the same generous guys went back later and revised their work to better reflect the route's original character.

ASCA protocol is whatever the individual bolter does. Meaning there is really no protocol aside from replacing "existing" bolts and not using the HW for new anchors. Some rebolting jobs were researched extensively beforehand to determine hole count, etc., some were heavy-handed drill fests where everything resembling metal in a hole (including hangerless rivets) got a new fatty in its place. That variance is why I don't rebolt for ASCA anymore. They're a great source of HW and have done way, way more bad than good, but I don't need gifted HW. It's like any company; it boils down to individual integrity.


Cheers.


PS: Lam, the Weasel read a post of mine upstream and said "You sound like Lambone." Honest, LOL!!!
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 09:38:10 am by Mike. »
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline Didder

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2009, 10:49:50 am »
Man and I just wanted to hear what the climbing was like up there.... sheeesh.

Offline lambone

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2009, 11:35:50 am »
Quote
PS: Lam, the Weasel read a post of mine upstream and said "You sound like Lambone." Honest, LOL!!!

HA! Goes to show it's much harder to live down a reputation you've established for yourself regardless of how many years have passed since those times!

I admit I was surprised to see your post/stance above towards hoipolloi, of course the post was in response to a PM so there is more to the story behind the scenes.

Honestly it's news to me that it's expected to contact a FA'er regarding replacing original 1/4 inch anchor bolts....I supose I should add "In order to conform to the highest standards." But it does make sense. As a good friend you surely know I wasn't taking a shot at you for the bolts on WFLT or anything, hell I've happily clipped them!

I also agree that hoipolloi should stand behind his words/actions rather then deleting them. Seems like if you are going to place steel then tout about it online you should be ready to stand up for your actions, or atleast be willing to engage in a conversation about it.

we are members of a small tribe here guys, a tiny sector of an allready small community. We are bound to see eachother face to face at the bridge someday. No reason we cant have a respectful exchange of ideas and dialogue.

Just to clarify my initial post here: "We're you able to reuse the holes.?" I asked because, imho rebolting efforts arn't complete unless the best effort is made to clean up the old bolts and holes, by either re-using the holes, or at least patching it. Of course this is purely for asthetic reasons and in the grand scheme of things, not really that important. I appreciated your reply to my question and am not sure why you deleted it. Seemed fully legit and commendable...Mike was obviously put off by some of the language but he's a crusty old pirate so take his "spare me the bullshit comment" with a grain of salt!

BriGuys picture from the Weekly Favorite Pics thread seems to bee fitting here. What would you do?


What Route is this Brian?

 
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 11:47:24 am by lambone »

Offline lunchbox

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2009, 01:02:30 pm »
Wow I think this may rank as the most exciting thread the Big Wall Forum has seen to date.  And, I might add,Totally on Topic.

Since I spent the weekend up there with Hoi and partook in the effort and decisions to change out some hardware I should report on our thinking and intentions.  I'd also like to think Mike for his input and challenge to our efforts.  I most certainly value your opinion and welcome your criticism as it furthers the debate and will ultimatle lead to the best possible outcome for the future of this route.  

To be certain we most definitely did take matters into our own hands, after all we left the ground with a few rivets and 6 3/8" anchor setups.  Our intentions were to climb the route as is, assess each belay as we reached it and hopefully make a quick and speedy ascent.  The ASCA website said most belay have 1-3 good bolts and may poor lead bolts and was dated 2001.  They had also replaced 14 belay bolts.  What we found on the route's first 7 pitches were typically 2 to 3 original 1/4" and 1 five piece 3/8"  

Pitch one's anchor was Okay and we didn't drill at this anchor.  I believe this is also a part of the Huber bros. free variation to Zodiac and prior work had already been done here.

Pitch two's anchor was a different story.  This pitch comes in from the right after trending up an easy ramp to a good stance.  The belay was bolted and there is no crack at the base of the stance and no cracks above or around the belay to back it up.  They're original 1/4" bolts with SMC hangers, one about a foot above the stance and another above that one.  Both are very bad.  We drilled a new bolt here to be used with the ASCA's bolt and plan to pull and patch as needed.  This belay is now as bomber as the original and much more useable, it does not change the character of the climbing on either the pitch above or below as you traverse into it and away from it to climb the next pitch.

Pitch Three is the Left Hand of Darkness.  There were three bolts at this belay, one new 5 piece and two bad 1/4" one of which was is part of the lead pro and is not used for the belay as it is 4 or more feet from the anchor.  The one 1/4" bolt here was in fractured rock and shaft of the bolt itself was only partway into what was left of the hole.  We pulled this one easily and placed a new 3/8".  The climbing above is an A3 hooking section that starts right off the belay so no lead pro is possible and backing up the belay can only be accomplished with cams in a very poor flake up and way right of the bolts.  

Pitch four's bolts are in good shape consisting of one new 5 piece and a good 5/16.

Cats and frogs Ledge had one good 5 piece and one 3/8' stud that was only partially drilled and stuck out of it's hole more that 2".  We pulled this stud, redrilled the hole to proper depth and reused the stud.  We also drilled a new 3/8 here to spread the anchor and make this ledge one of the best I've found on the Captain.  

Pitch six is White Line Fever and was one of the crux pitches due to crumbling bat hook holes and aluminum dowels.  Part of this pitch has fallen off and on day two I drilled 3 rivets (from my top steeps) to connect back up to poor bat hook holes and dowels.  The end of this pitch is bolted and Bite the Dyke Ramp starts off with a 1/4 w/ leeper hanger and a non orgininal machine head then some A3 hooking.  The other two original belay bolts are in very poor condition and there is also a good 5/16 button head and a poor 5 piece in hollow rock.  Equalizing everything I could find, I short fixed here and soloed the hook bit.  

Pitch seven was by far the worst we've seen so far.  There are seven bolts, one broken 1/4 and another 3/8 stud scans hanger sticking 2"+ out of the rock.  Of these three appear to be orgininal and in need of replacement.  These originals are also off to the right of where the current belay has migrated over the years as the belay is spread out over some 7 horizontal feet and covering about  5 feet in vertical feet as well.  A real nightmare to equalize given that only one bolt of the the 7 was any good.  I drilled a new 3/8 here to compliment the other good 5 piece and intend to pull the crappy stud and reuse it's hole as well.  This should return the belay to a usable condition and will not effect the crux climbing on the next hooking pitch.

At this point we rapped the route and Added a belay bolt to the top on White Line Fever as the new 5 piece we found is in hollow diorite (sp) and should be pulled.  We were out of bolts, time and felt the belays were not safe enough to continue at this point.  

All the bolts we drilled on this attempt leave the lead climbing unaltered and in my judgment warranted based on both the Don Reid topo, evidence of original belay and lead bolts, the ASCA's reporting the SuperTopo guide and my own personal experience of climbing on Yosemite's big walls, which encompasses 40+ grade V and VI routes.  

I am comfortable with decisions we made on this route and stand accountable for said actions.  I in no way intended to alter the route or deviate for the character established by FA party and have a great deal of respect for both Steve and John.  I also have no intention of replacing the lead hardware on this route without first consulting the FA party and gaining their approval to determine their needs are meet.  

Sorry about the long winded reporting.  Its difficult to put these things in words especially on the Innerweb.....

I welcome this communities response and will make every effort to be forthcoming.  

Cheers,
scott
  


Offline Mike.

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2009, 02:21:54 pm »
Great discourse, guys.

Thanks, Scott, for laying that out. I appreciate your conscientious effort here and in the field.


Lambone...Roger, man. Regarding contacting FA parties, it's a nicety that can be and does get eschewed. Anyone can legitimately say "they don't own that route," and do what the FA did (basically as they choose). Legit in terms of written law. Where/whenever it's possible, I think ascertaining the FA's vision and wishes is a nod of respect and the right thing to do. I'm not huge on traditions, but I can see the ultimate utility in this one. Not every climb is for every climber, as it should be. Thinking through, we can see what might be in the ultimate scenario if every team packed bolting gear and used it liberally. Sanitized climbing for the masses. Not directing this commentary at anyone, speaking theoretically. It's all been said before, too.

No poke taken, brother, but it made me think. This entire thread has made me think again about my own actions. That's a good thing, so thanks.



"What would you do"

Thick Leepers? That thing looks bomber! Seriously, the rust appears to be coming off the hangers, not the bolts. I'd EQ that without huge concern and make note for later work. Maybe extend down the first lead piece off the belay if it's decent.

In AZ we used to whip like mad on 1/4" BHs and thin Leepers. All the time. There were no fat bolts on lead anywhere I climbed. I'm sure most or all are now replaced, but we never gave it a thought (and I never heard of one failing).


Cheers again.


PS: Look forward to meeting in person all you digital names. Scott, tell Hoi it's all good, nothing beyond some heat from the kitchen here. Which we all endure. (Hey, Hoi. Come on back, slugger.)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 02:27:17 pm by Mike. »
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Offline hoipolloi

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2009, 02:37:03 pm »
As I started typing this, Scott posted a very thorough post explaining the situation.  

I apologize for deleting previous threads typed by me, not a good way to go about a discussion.  After reading through Scotts thread, I understand how I should have detailed and described the events right off the bat, again I apologize for not submitting this sort of clear description right away.

I respect Mike a lot and I know he has a lot of experience and time on the rock.  Your opinion is important, and you are right, I should stand up and discuss this topic.




Thanks.


Offline passthepitonspete

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2009, 08:18:23 pm »
Holy!  What did I miss?  Dude - it's SO LAME to delete stuff after people shit on you. Stand up and take it like a man!  I've written lots of shit over the years, and haven't deleted any of it - I keep it there as a reminder to myself of my own stupidity. 

I've spoken with Steve Schneider regarding our rebolting of Bermuda Dunes, when we made the fourth ascent a few years ago.  Steve was pretty mellow and accomodating, and didn't have any problems with us replacing bolts, or even adding bolts to the belay.  "Go to town" were his exact words. 

I spoke to Chris Mac and ASCA and asked them if they would provide us bolts, along with the caveat that I had never replaced bolts before, and couldn't guarantee that we would always replace, and that we might add.  Chris and I agreed that it would be better that ASCA not support us, since I couldn't offer the guarantee.  So Tom and I scrounged round the Valley for a couple days, and rounded up a bunch of bolts.  Thanks especially to Wally Barker. 

So up we went with Tom's homemade tuning forks, and a bunch of bolts.  We replaced a bunch of anchor bolts - around 20 if I recall correctly, and in every instance, we removed the old quarter-inchers with our tuning forks, and re-used the holes to put in new 3/8-inchers.  It is hugely less work to re-use a hole, than to drill a brand new one.  When ASCA learned that we didn't add anything, and that all our rebolting re-used the existing holes, we have been sponsored ever since. 

Anyway, thanks very much for doing this work on Lunar Eclipse.  I climbed it in the fall of 02 - it was my sixth El Cap solo and 20th route.  I didn't replace any bolts, but probably made some crazy equalizations on the anchors.  A few questions:

1.  Did you add any new bolts?  If so where and why?

2.  Were you able to pull out old bolts, and re-use the same holes by drilling them out to 3/8"?  If knott, why knott? 

3.  Do you have proper tuning forks?  If knott, why knott?  This problem is easily remedied - just send Theron Moses a #1 and #3 LA, and he'll cut you a nice slot in each of them, and you'll be good to go.

4.  Did you 'replace' any lead bolts and rivets?  If so, how?  Note:  in almost every instance where you 'replace' a lead rivet, you will have to pull it, patch the hole, and drill a new hole, because you can't re-use a 1/4-inch hole with a 1/4-inch piece, you have to go up to 3/8, which you probably don't want to do on lead. 

Sounds like you guys are doing a conscientious job, and as I read on McTopo, plan to go back up and finish the job.  So we're just checkin', makin' sure you're doing it right, eh?

Cheers,
Pete
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 08:24:45 pm by passthepitonspete »
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Offline mungeclimber

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2009, 10:16:27 pm »
kew, zall good in bigwall.interwebs again.


actually, Lunchbox threw me for a sec when he says "drilled a new 3/8"...

But note here...

"I drilled a new 3/8 here to compliment the other good 5 piece and intend to pull the crappy stud and reuse it's hole as well"

what he's saying is that they popped and plugged the 1/4" with 3/8" bolts.


true nuff, not easy to get it all typed out.

sounds like a solid rebolting effort.  Just need to go back up and finish eh? (shit I'm starting to sound like Pete again)


Offline BriGuy

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2009, 12:38:40 am »
That photo is from somewhere in the black dihedral on the NA. We did not use it as a belay anchor but I took a photo because I wondered if it was an original from the FA.

Offline Mike.

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2009, 07:33:18 am »
Welcome back, hoi. Thanks, Pete & Bri.
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline lambone

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2009, 09:02:10 am »
Oh yeah Bri I remember that now, it's the intermediate belay that everyone skips.

Offline Raaf

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2009, 12:36:37 pm »
I've never placed or replaced a bolt in my life. But when I gave $$$ to the ASCA, this is exactly how I expected/intended it would be used.

In my mind, the character and risk of a climb are in the features you tackle when you're on lead. The preservation of the challenge faced by the first ascenders should be one of the highest priorities. I agree that all bolting activities should be scrutinized for good jugement so we don't get excessive placements and change (lower) the rating of a route. That said, these guys were replacing anchor bolts--some of which are 27 years old. Aren't anchors meant to be your safe spot in between risky leads?

My vote is that these guys deserve a hearty thanks.

Offline johnmac

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Re: lunar eclipse
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2009, 12:53:00 pm »
Maybe the two on the outside were the orginal anchors and then one in the middle added a year or two later. Just because of the different heads.