Author Topic: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?  (Read 6069 times)

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Offline slabbyd

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The enternal question.

I'm a dabbler.  Soloed a handful of Grade V's, have since took a looong unintentional break and now plan on doing a few more before I really start to rot.

BITD I developed a set of systems that worked well enough for me.  But once I reached the belay I was never quite content with how best to rig the haul line so that I could confidentally rappel it, load it with the haul bag and then haul once I got back to the anchor.

Because I travelled relatively light (<60lb bag) I came up with the following method. 

I'd pre-rig the haul line through a Wall Hauler set relatively high on the anchor.
The I'd tie the haul line off Below the Wall Hauler at the Power Point.  So that I wasn't relying on the toothed cam to hold my weight.
Next...rappeling, lowering out the haul bag and cleaning back to the anchor.
Once back at the anchor, I'd  used a Tibloc with a 5' piece of 7mm cord ending in a footloop, redirected through a biner to lift the bag off the tieoff at the power point.
At which point I'd undo the tieoff, pull the slack through the Wall Hauler, undo the tibloc and haul away.

It worked plenty, but required an extra piece of gear (Tibloc and cord), some fiddling and would not work for really heavy loads.

So If your constrained by the use of a Wall Hauler or mini traxion (I don't want to buy more stuff) and a petrifying fear of rappelling off a toothed cam does anyone have a better idea?

Thanks!   


Offline offset

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2010, 02:34:11 pm »
i haven't done it myself... but what about pulling up a little bit of the haul line (below the hauling device) and connecting it to the anchor with a load release jumper.   throw a mariners knot (?hitch?) in there or similar... rap from below it....release the pigs... clean... release the load release... haul... party...

i'd have to draw it out or set it up to really know...but this is just something that comes to mind right now.


Offline csproul

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2010, 05:04:01 pm »
I had started to make a new thread when I saw that this was asking a similar question. So I erased my post and will just post my question here. Any answers will be relevant to the orignial post too. I saw a picture on here or on Mountainproject of just such a setup:

I am trying to find a picture that I thought I remembered seeing here or on mountainproject. It showed a setup for rapping off a pro-traxion while soloing. The picture showed a prussic taking the weight of the rope off of the pro-traxion and a back-up knot in the slack end of the rope. Anyone know the picture that I'm talking about or have a similar picture?

Offline offset

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2010, 05:07:39 pm »
don't know the picture.. but sounds reasonable... i think i overlooked the obvious.   you won't need the load release with the prussik cuz you'll just haul till the prusick is slack... then remove.... then party

Offline *Mucci*

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2010, 06:01:04 pm »
A munter mule knot with overhand finish.

When you get back to the belay, lower the bag onto a jug, untie the hitch (backed up with something), engage the hauling device and wham! YOur done.

Offline mungeclimber

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2010, 06:23:08 pm »
Mucci, do you mean lower it onto your hauling device so the haul line is taught and the bag lowered out when you say 'onto your jug' ?

thx hombre



while I think none of us will disagree that soloing walls is only for someone ready.  There is a dearth of knowledge on setting up systems for soloing generally. Books that talk about it, don't cover all systems and many good ideas of walling generally go into having a good solo experience (least I would suspect as I've not done any BWSOLO action).




hrm, you know what would be awesome is hearing Shipoopi talk about soloing. High level stuff. Maybea about Genesis?  Maybe he might do it if it generated some advising business.  Any ironworks guys on this board know if Steve is going to do some shows?



Offline *Mucci*

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2010, 08:50:18 pm »
Nope, first you would tie the end of the haul line off

run it through the hauling device (I like the jumar and BIG pulley),

give yourself a small loop below the hauling device and tie a munter/mule knot with overhand finish to the powerpoint.

Rap, release pig, clean

Now slam a inverted jumar anchored to your system on the tensioned line to the bag

Using the munter/mule lower the weight of the bag onto the jumar

undo the knot, pull the slack through the hauling device/pully and beging to haul.

This knot is choice for pig wrastling.

Easy and when all alone can make landing and launch not seem so bad.


Offline johnmac

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2010, 09:55:02 pm »
Thanks for sharing that seems like a really simple and safe way to do it.

Those photo's over on mountainproject are probably mine. I've rapped using a protrax and a prussik cord holding the weight of the rope. Backed up to the powerpoint. If you are interested I can try to dig them out and post them up here.

I did some drawings for someone over on supertopo a couple weeks back and I could send them to you if you wanted them.

John

« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 09:59:35 pm by johnmac »

Offline Mike.

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2010, 10:21:57 pm »
I rig the haul like normal and tie the haul line in short just above it. I have and will do this with any type of hauler that I trust enough to carry the load that sustains me on a wall. If the hauler were to for some reason fail, a minimal drop would occur. (One more good reason to use your old lead lines for haul lines.) I have taken somewhat a "fall" on rap (details you'll have to guess about again, extremebob) onto a PTrax rigged as described to no notable bad effect. I've had a haul bag take a "fall" onto a static line during lower out (another reason for dynamic). The Wall Hauler was ruined, the knot pulled to the hauler. These event and others reported have led me to the best set up for me so far.

My advice is to use a hauler you trust, one that's bomber enough for the job without extensive back up. A hauler being integral to a rap system seems like it ought to be worthy to begin with. Recreational gear like the Kong Block Roll and even the PT can work great under the right conditions, but if I'm soloing I want a bad ass pulley that puts any issues out of mind. A Kong BR has a load rating of 5kn (1125 lbs) off the ratchet, which doesn't seem bomber to me. The Rescuemate pulley on the right has a MBS of 15.5K pounds. Yes, the RM weighs over twice as much. It's steel versus the alum KBR and designed for rescue, not recreational use. (What that means in spec I can't answer.)




The jaws:




Hat's off to people who practice redundancy and err on the side of too bomber through rigging. For me, a bomber piece of gear that minimizes a task makes soloing more enjoyable. Not blind faith in tech, but bomber gear where possible. Yes, it can sap coin, but you know the drill...pain at the register leads to bliss in the field.

BTW, Wall Haulers don't have a toothed cam. Textured, but no real real teeth.

PS: I'm tired of tying mule knots. I don't even dock with them anymore. Too much work for my weak ass.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 11:05:09 pm by Mike. »
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline *Mucci*

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2010, 10:56:09 pm »
I have seen the Yates adjustable used, but 2 were used on the big loads. 

What do you use Mike?

I also would like to know where I can get the pulley on the right (the rescue mate) for a price?  Seems as though it would double in a rescue situation which is an added bonus.  Beefy indeed!


Offline Mike.

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2010, 11:23:44 pm »
Hey, Mucci, I used my old Pika adjustables and they have worked great for docking. I used one per bag, each 150 lbs, or more. Two might be too much seeing you always b/u with the line, but still easier than the mules. jmac uses the adjusties method, too.

Muc, I'd probably not ever have gotten that RM but it was at a used gear sale at Rockreation Costa Mesa for $20. And it was new then. Since I started using it I can't go back to rapping off those sport units. Check out Storrick's site to get off the beaten path. Maybe some rescue outfitters. I was looking at the CMI Uplift and f-ing drooling. How about a huge, knot-minding pulley as a cheaper option? Maybe check with county rescue units for retired gear deals?

Go burley, aye.
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Offline scottydo

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2010, 01:35:43 am »
have I ever mentioned how much I love this forum? it's the one climbing place online that people actually talk about climbing with positive and constructive feedback.  You all rule. :)

and great feed back by the way. they all sound like systems that work well if you have it figured out. Personally I think the munter-mule method sounds the safest and least gear intensive.



Offline Erik Sloan

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2010, 01:48:00 pm »
with all due respect to the elder members on this forum--let's not get carried away suggesting there is anything better than a munter-mule for most bigwall haulbag docking. When Mike says he ain't into it you have to remember he's on a 15 day ascent and in extreme vacation mode(a good way to sail, btw). For your normal 4 day wall you can't get a simpler/faster/efficient system than the munter-mule.

I agree with Mike about rapping off the cam on the hauler, with a backup up knot just above it. The bags generally weigh as much or more than us and they hang on there plenty without any noticeable wear on the rope.

....I smell wall season approachin!

Offline slabbyd

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2010, 02:26:14 pm »
Munter/mule instantly makes a load of sense.  Thanks boys...

Offline *Mucci*

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2010, 05:50:14 pm »
Thanks for the word Mike.  Checking em out right now.


It is a fairly complicated Hitch/KNott butt pays tenfold in it's utility.

Offline Mike.

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2010, 05:53:19 pm »
"...let's not get carried away..."

Haha, no... I use the adjustable daisy dock always, except if I can easily lift and unclip the load at a hanging belay. It works too easily and too fast to use anything else. (I had the justies laying around retired from jugging duty, so didn't buy dedicated.) And you can attach the daisy to the bag in a spot that better enables bag access that a let-out line which will most likely be attached to the bag's swivel or haul straps. Once the weight is on the let out, clip the adj daisy somewhere it's not likely to dangle and become a problem. Where attached to the wall, turn the release button so it faces the wall and will have the least chance of accidental depression.

The mule is the standard m.o. for docking, but that doesn't make it the best method. Occasionally a mule will slip and force a mini-haul to release the bag. There are other load release knots, maybe they avert that occasional snag.

Differnt haul strokes. FWIW. YMMV. WTF.
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Offline Mike.

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2010, 06:35:11 pm »
3" sheave on this baby:

http://www.rescuedirect.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=SK710&Category_Code=PULL


Looks like the CMI, but the CMI reputes to have a 2.67" sheave. FWIW I'd remove the extra sheave and shorten the bolt. Gonna do that to my RM22.
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline lambone

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2010, 12:35:55 am »
I rig a chordalette a with a klimeheist knot tied just below the hauler, and up to the anchor with a Munter-Mule. Rap on that instead of the hauler (hauline backed up of course.

This is how Werner told me to do it, so I trust it.

Offline hoipolloi

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2010, 07:49:46 pm »
Lambone-


How long is the chunk of cordage that you use to tie the klemheist + Munter mule?

As I type this I realize that the munter mule could be its own piece of cordage clipped to the piece that is a klemheist, if one was not long enough to do both.


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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2010, 09:49:14 pm »
I tie off the haul below the jug. Kleimheist or a couple prussiks. Just seemed like the way.
My haul has teeth. I don't want to jug on teeth.
Don't seem right.
Everyone has their method. If it works, doesn't damage YOU or your stuff, then that's the way.
Be open to different ways, weigh them, & decide.
Cheers.

Offline johnmac

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2010, 09:10:17 pm »
I think the key here is not to be hard set on your systems and continually evaluate them. Often as soloist we don't have people who critique our systems and what we think is a great system can be flawed. That's what makes this forum so different than all the others. The willingness to share and be open about things. Also, just because your system is different doesn't mean its bad, but rather just another way of doing it.

I spend a lot of time practicing systems and testing other peoples ideas in my garage. I really get a kick out of it. If my wife can find me she knows where to look! I often don't drastically change the way I do things, but rather just tweak it a little and compare and contrast. If it snows on Sunday I'll be spending most of the day day testing out some of the ideas shared here.

Offline Chad

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2010, 10:21:48 pm »
I've been using a Petzl Shunt in place of the klemheist/autoblock/Prusiiks, which doesn't meet your criteria about not acquiring extra gear, but I like it a lot, and it works great as a third hand if you need to pass the knot when hauling. It's kind of nice when rapping with a pig as well (as long as your ropes are identical).

Offline slabbyd

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2010, 11:07:24 am »
Three pitches and a 60 lb haulbag of rocks later I'm still alive as are all the other climbers who wandered by the base of the crag blissly unaware of the little science experiment taking place directly above their heads.  Once again thanks for the tip.

Offline hoipolloi

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2010, 07:01:02 pm »
Quote
Three pitches and a 60 lb haulbag of rocks later I'm still alive as are all the other climbers who wandered by the base of the crag blissly unaware of the little science experiment taking place directly above their heads.  Once again thanks for the tip.


hahaha

Offline passthepitonspete

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2010, 10:20:44 pm »
When all I had was a Wall Hauler, I would rappel directly off of a knot, and then when it came time to haul, lift the haul device into the Wall Hauler with my 2:1. 

I haven't soloed El Cap for a while, but when I was doing it regularly I just rapped off my Kong Block-Roll, with the haul line backed up in a knot on the other side.  The device is rated for 5kn which is fine for rapping. 

It never occured to me to use an upside-down "prusik" [really a Klemheist] on the weighted end of the rope, to take my weight and not the Kong.  It sure sounds like the Better Way to me.  And it will come out right away as soon as you start hauling. 
Dr. Piton says, "There is always a Better Way!"

Offline Raaf

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2010, 11:33:00 pm »
Who says the Kong Block Roll is sketchy for body hauling?





Ok, I know it's not supertopo here. Just having some rainy-day fun.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 11:35:27 pm by Raaf (formerly pivaraaf) »

Offline mhudon

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2010, 10:05:19 am »
If you're using a 2:1 system to haul, you could tie off the haul line directly into the anchor. When you get back to the anchor, set up the 2:1 below the knot, haul one stroke, untie the knot and continue. Simple, easy, safe and quick.

Offline BEMHO

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2010, 09:57:59 am »
I do not know how good of an idea this is but the guy who taught me to climb walls taught me to do some strange things for solo style walls.  Hauling was always the problem he said.

he told me that he would set the pig up on a hook that had a hole drilled in the top of the hook with a cord to a prusik on the haul line.  he would hook the bag to a loop or a biner on the anchor.  When he got to the next belay he would set up the haul and start hauling.  The hook would lift off the biner and he could haul as he rappelled. He told me this only worked on pitches where the line was fairly straight up and not traversing in any way.

I was always suspect if the hook were to some how come off the loop or belay he would probably be ripped in half when the weight of the bag came tight at the end of a 200 foot free fall.

Offline mhudon

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2010, 11:38:22 am »
I can't imagine why the hook would ever come off the loop or biner but it's a freaky situation. Search for Pete's "Slippery Knot". It's a slick trick and makes hanging bags on hooks safe.

Offline johnmac

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Re: How to rig the the haul line for rapping and hauling when soloing?
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2010, 12:11:28 pm »
I've known people that do the counterbalance hauling off a fifi to use a short piece of light cord between the end of the haul line and the haul loop on the harness that acts as a breakable link in the event of the haul bag falling off the anchor.

Must be real scary if it every happened.

I've tried this once and I ended up getting really tangled up. I think if you know how to do it and the haul is straight up and down it must be a big energy saver.