Author Topic: List of routes on Fifi buttress  (Read 2333 times)

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Offline Erik Sloan

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List of routes on Fifi buttress
« on: August 16, 2010, 10:54:13 am »
I'm not seeing these routes on the 'complete list of Yo bigwalls'. Am I missing it? Does anyone know a link to a page with this info?

Offline Burt

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Re: List of routes on Fifi buttress
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2010, 04:25:39 pm »
You're still posting? Why do some of these routes need to be "retro" are there some scary or shitty cruxes that you must bolt past? How about this go fuck yourself and leave the routes alone. We do not need your "improvements" of our routes anymore. Go away.
Kurt "Burt" Arend

Offline Mike.

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Re: List of routes on Fifi buttress
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2010, 10:20:28 pm »
Let's have a list of the retro holes on El Cap, Washington Column and Leaning Tower. That might get the American Chopper out of hiatus.
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline YetAnotherDave

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Re: List of routes on Fifi buttress
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2010, 08:01:52 am »
I see this turning into a downward spiral here...

Erik, after the way your 'variations' to GSR were received, I'd suggest you put your drill away completely for a season or three.  Even straight one-for-one replacement of shitty anchor bolts will be fuel to the fire.

Maybe focus your talents on doing clean ascents of some harder walls, to show that you do still care about the stone we all share.  Lotsa first-clean-ascents available still, get some!

--dave

Offline johnmac

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Re: List of routes on Fifi buttress
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2010, 09:36:01 am »
One of the reasons why I like this site over supertopo and others is the fact that we all seem to get along, share and help each other with techniques, routes, etc. Generally, we don't lay out personal attacks and I'd hate to see this site go down that road.

Maybe it would be best to contact Erik directly via his email address to discuss his bolting of new variations or replacing of anchors, etc.

We have all done things that at the time seemed liked a good idea, but on reflection weren't so smart. On face value it doesn't look like GSR was a good idea but I'm willing to wait and hear the full story before condeming him. I've learnt a lot from some of his posts over here and value his experience.

I would appreciate a good discussion about what has been going on, rather than the name calling and mud slinging.

Offline mhudon

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Re: List of routes on Fifi buttress
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2010, 09:45:51 am »
One reason this site is so nice is that we have none of that Supertopo childish name calling. I'd suggest you guy take it private.

Offline Burt

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Re: List of routes on Fifi buttress
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2010, 12:06:04 pm »
wow you guys have got to be kidding me. This guy is RETRO bolting your routes. So if he laid 3 big fatties right in the middle of the hook or book, or drilled the "carrot" pitch on Tribal would this have a different tone? Many people have gone to Erik in private and gotten the same BS that he lays everywhere. So what is the next step? Who is name calling? Calling a spade a spade if far from mud slinging or childish name calling. This is an effort to try and preserve some sort of history and respect for the ones that went before us. Adding bolts, dumbing down our routes is not how you do that. Look at some Kohl routes. He had a beautiful way of building anchors (naturally) and making the climbing real. Some people thought that it was so unsafe to have anchors like that and drilled them into submission. If you don't like the anchor situation then you are in over your head and should bail. People feel they are so entitled to climb everything that if they can't then it is the routes problem not their own. Erik start long ago doing good. He replaced bolt for bolt on dangerous and aging equipment. Now his ego has grown with time and he needs to be checked. WE ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT CAN DO THAT! So by calling him out on this publicly and everyone letting him know that this is no longer acceptable then maybe we can convince him to stop. If not then we know where he stands and we can deal with him then.

Johnmac we have tried to play nice with Erik. Many before Mike called him out. Erik does not give a shit and his elitist attitude towards the issue is mind boggling. So try your best to talk with Erik personally, and after you receive some thoughtfully laid out crap for a response, your frustrations will come full circle like many of us have.

Mark, congrats on the solo. Very proud effort. I enjoyed your story. Again, many have failed with a private discussion on many levels not just with Erik about bolting. I am a huge proprietor of policing the community ourselves. At some  point when the offending party responds negatively to the "way the community feels" and keeps blasting away hurting both sides of the equation then we are left to start tightening the reins on these people. Erik has a vested interest in making climbing work. He makes money doing so. Well if I made money robbing banks or car jacking your mom then I would be publicly ousted. So taking this to a public level is in my opinion the next step. When the masses join together, and we say no more we stand a fighting chance of making this work. What a beautiful thing for the generation coming up to see. That climbers don't just bitch on the net, then are proactive in trying to persevere history. Prime example is the David Lama thing on Cerro Torre. Is this who we want teaching our future generations of climbers? So policing ourselves, saying no we are not accepting this anymore is not such a bad thing if we can fight to persevere who went before us.   

Kurt "Burt" Arend

Offline Mike.

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Re: List of routes on Fifi buttress
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2010, 12:13:20 pm »
I know you guys would like everything to be amicable and chummy. That is commendable, and believe it or not I'd like that, too.

You have no idea how much conversation has gone down with Sloan offline, by email and otherwise in private by multiple people attempting to get solid information and steer things in a positive, community-driven direction. We are dealing with a person here (Erik) who is prolific in terms of climbing activity and drilling, yet elusive, vague and flatly unwilling in "conversation," has proven unwilling to work within a group, unwilling (so far) to amend practices--to truly consider anything outside his own vision. This has been continuing for many years as I wrote previously. Also as I wrote previously, the drilling infractions (from this single person) are getting worse with time. I see a trend here, and the blatant drilling down of routes in conjunction with "new topos" of the "routes" is only the latest in that disconcerting trend.

So AFA taking this offline, it's not going to happen. I will do what I can to let know as many people in the big wall community as possible what is happening to our routes, including dropping in on threads like this. If anyone laments the spoiled peace and love here, she should think for a minute about the resource we have and what it means to us. Hudon, you are the poster boy for loving the big walls. You thought the 'heads on TR were silly and unnecessary--how about finding much, much worse than that on the next route you do? How about every route you do? Are you okay with a fatty sprouting up on non-mandatory 5.6x that Layton Kor led in 1965 gear? 35 feet from the base hiking path? How would you feel if someone drilled up a FFA you did clean with considerable effort? If anyone thinks this manifestation of the passion (almost all of us have for big walls) is childish, name-calling mud slinging that's her choice. I suggest a broader view of what's happening and how it will affect everyone's big wall experience, rather than groping for rainbow shades and expecting everyone to be buddies no matter what each person does.

The guy in question here patronizingly suggests we debate ethics concepts in some long-lost thread rather than ask pointed questions about what really happened and why. There is no debating this: Leading an existing route with a drill and using it to tame the harder sections and create A0 diversions with no FA or community contact is bad for big wall climbing. Unless you think big wall should be via feratta.

The vitriol being shown here in this thread and others toward Erik is, believe it or not, not a personal attack. Not a personal attack. I would have the same level of concern about any person who does the things that Erik Sloan does to our routes. Why is it that very nearly every climber who climbs and restores the routes can work with the community and Erik cannot? Jim Beyer, Ken Nichols, Erik Sloan...thankfully the numbers are very few, but the damage caused by even one person bent on a unilateral vision can be substantial--as we know. I phoned Beyer after his vandalism spree on EC some years ago to request he kindly refrain from similar actions in the future--for the same reason I'm posting here/now. Nothing personal.

I keep thinking about the time Erik took a shit on the trail about fifty feet from where two groups of climbers were camping. A big steaming log, replete with used shit paper, just lying there proud as day--no attempt to step a few yards off the trail or do anything to hide the mess. I was aghast, and upon learning who the depositor was knew something was very wrong. That act keeps replaying in my mind because it so embodies what Erik is about. Whatever helps him and all others be damned. Do you deem the mention of that mud slinging or childish? It's not. It is calling somebody out who clearly doesn't have any sense of community (or common sense and decency, FTM). I'm not going to walk past the steaming shit pile and act like everything is okay. Nothing personal. It's the actions in question, not the person.

Thanks for reading. Cheers.



PS: Thanks to all posters here for weighing in. Viewpoints appreciated.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 12:32:17 pm by Mike. »
Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

Offline mhudon

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Re: List of routes on Fifi buttress
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2010, 01:12:56 pm »
Well, now that you mention Beyers, I'll back off. I don't have any first hand knowledge of Erik's transgressions so I can weigh in on that though. All in all, I'd rather have routes left along than dumbed down.

Offline Erik Sloan

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Re: List of routes on Fifi buttress
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2010, 12:11:51 pm »
Hey Mike and Burt,

Good to see you're getting your ethical frustrations out. That's what your other thread is for.

This thread is about creating a comprehensive list of bigwall routes in Yosemite.

Anyone climbed on Fifi?

cheers
e

Offline Burt

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Re: List of routes on Fifi buttress
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2010, 10:26:20 am »
No, I will post wherever you decide to post. See I am not afraid, nor hide behind the keyboard. We will meet, I will give you a piece of my mind in hopes to help people understand what you are doing to our routes. My goal in this is to A) get you to stop, B) make you leave the valley with your head hung in shame, C) make you stop. You decide how you want this to play out. Many are asking you to stop, so why must you keep going?  So when you post, I will be here waiting. An we have many lists of bigwall routes, another one is great as long as you are not involved in it. This is not an ethical debate, you are ADDING bolts to existing routes. Why not go bolt the Bachar/Yerian? Oh that's right you will be hung and your lifeless body will be drug threw the streets of Yosemite Valley. What you are doing to these climbs is no different Erik except they are on the down low, so please put the drill away. What is the need? You don't feel safe on these routes? Then come down, you are in over your head. If the FA has one bolt belays, then replace the one bolt if that's what makes your ass tingle, but to add crap, leave it alone. There are hundreds more routes to choose from, why do you have to fuck up someones masterpiece? So again, why not just let it go and leave the routes alone. Respect the history and the ones who blazed the path before you, long before you were a sperm in your dads balls.

Kurt "Burt" Arend 

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Re: List of routes on Fifi buttress
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2010, 04:38:05 pm »
I think that the Burt will NOT relent, Nanook.
You crossed the line, man. You've gotta know what that entails............
Did it to yourself, man. No blame, though you've some coming.
All good. We ALL get ours...........What we sow, man.
YOU know this. Repent? please & thank you.

Maybe.